Page 3 of 5 [ 69 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

iamnotaparakeet
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 25,091
Location: 0.5 Galactic radius

13 Oct 2010, 12:20 pm

Orwell wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
Learning is not merely the accumulation and recall of fact.
Correct, knowledge is not the only important aspect of education, but also understanding and skills related to the field of study as well. None of these require an hundred thousand dollar bill to obtain.

There are ways to obtain a formal education without paying large amounts of money for it. I will soon graduate from a top-50 university without having paid a dime for tuition. After that, I go on to graduate school, where I will also receive an excellent education without paying for tuition.

But to your substantive point... mastering and understanding those skills often does require the help of professors, interactions with other students, and access to the resources that a university has. The professors and the university's resources cost money. Unless you can convince someone else that it is worthwhile for them to fund your education, you are going to end up accumulating a bill. But it is at least a good investment.


You will not have paid, personally. However, that is not to say that it is free. What is your Uber-Wunder-Schule's name anyhow?



Orwell
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Aug 2007
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,518
Location: Room 101

13 Oct 2010, 12:26 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
You will not have paid, personally. However, that is not to say that it is free. What is your Uber-Wunder-Schule's name anyhow?

I don't think I ever said it was free. I said that I didn't pay anything for it, and that's true. I attended on a merit-based scholarship.

The school is University of Miami (not to be confused with Miami University).


_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH


Janissy
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 May 2009
Age: 59
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,450
Location: x

13 Oct 2010, 1:04 pm

visagrunt wrote:
[.

However, neither my MD nor my LLB could have been completed autodidactically. Both involved significant amounts of socratic, seminar and small group learning that could not have been accomplished alone.

.


And then there is the matter of labs. If you try to dissect a human cadavar outside of a med school anatomy lab, you will be arrested.

I would run screaming in the other direction to get away from somebody who learned medicine as an autodidact. Some things really need to be learned in school.

I have heard that prisons are a place where some people become law autodidacts as they try to figure out how to appeal their sentence and have years and years to read law books. But I don't know how well that works out for them.



KissOfMarmaladeSky
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Aug 2010
Gender: Female
Posts: 532

13 Oct 2010, 1:59 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Autodidacticism is the philosophy of being ones own educator, learning on one's own via textbooks, experimentation, or otherwise being one's own teacher. Credentialism, on the other had, and for this discussion, is the emphasis upon credentials in order to prove you know something - often associated with a few years of being owned by a college and then being stuck with a bill for a few myriad dollars. In college, you are basically teaching yourself anyhow, except you have a heck of a lot more money to pay for doing so. At least that's my opinion as of now. What does everyone else here think? Does getting a piece of paper that costs tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars actually prove you actually have the knowledge you signed up to learn? Does it mean for certain that you will get a job/career? Are most colleges anything more than type of a business playing upon the gullibility of the population into which the importance of a college education has been drilled into them from childhood? Does it mean that the college will get paid for certain or do they lack any certainty of getting money once a person enrolls? Is it not possible to learn virtually everything you could learn in a college just for the price of the textbooks and the time it takes to exert the effort to study the material that you want to learn in college?


Credentials on a piece of paper do not entail that you are actually knowledgeable in the subject area. Yes, people should get opportunities for higher learning, but sometimes, careful research and experimentation is actually better than a $9.00 certificate from Certificate Depot.



iamnotaparakeet
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 25,091
Location: 0.5 Galactic radius

13 Oct 2010, 2:03 pm

KissOfMarmaladeSky wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Autodidacticism is the philosophy of being ones own educator, learning on one's own via textbooks, experimentation, or otherwise being one's own teacher. Credentialism, on the other had, and for this discussion, is the emphasis upon credentials in order to prove you know something - often associated with a few years of being owned by a college and then being stuck with a bill for a few myriad dollars. In college, you are basically teaching yourself anyhow, except you have a heck of a lot more money to pay for doing so. At least that's my opinion as of now. What does everyone else here think? Does getting a piece of paper that costs tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars actually prove you actually have the knowledge you signed up to learn? Does it mean for certain that you will get a job/career? Are most colleges anything more than type of a business playing upon the gullibility of the population into which the importance of a college education has been drilled into them from childhood? Does it mean that the college will get paid for certain or do they lack any certainty of getting money once a person enrolls? Is it not possible to learn virtually everything you could learn in a college just for the price of the textbooks and the time it takes to exert the effort to study the material that you want to learn in college?


Credentials on a piece of paper do not entail that you are actually knowledgeable in the subject area. Yes, people should get opportunities for higher learning, but sometimes, careful research and experimentation is actually better than a $9.00 certificate from Certificate Depot.


But is it really worth more to get a $90,000 certificate as Certificate Depot as compared to a $9.00 certificate from Certificate Depot?



iamnotaparakeet
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 25,091
Location: 0.5 Galactic radius

13 Oct 2010, 2:04 pm

Janissy wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
[.

However, neither my MD nor my LLB could have been completed autodidactically. Both involved significant amounts of socratic, seminar and small group learning that could not have been accomplished alone.

.


And then there is the matter of labs. If you try to dissect a human cadavar outside of a med school anatomy lab, you will be arrested.

I would run screaming in the other direction to get away from somebody who learned medicine as an autodidact. Some things really need to be learned in school.

I have heard that prisons are a place where some people become law autodidacts as they try to figure out how to appeal their sentence and have years and years to read law books. But I don't know how well that works out for them.


It would be years to read the law books regardless of whether it cost $500 per credit hour or $50 per book.



mag07k
Emu Egg
Emu Egg

User avatar

Joined: 18 Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 1

19 Dec 2010, 4:21 pm

If I was in a position to hire an individual; a college degree, charter, or certification would only be one variable to the equation. There is far too much weight placed on credentials in our society. Furthermore, I am a college graduate and work for a fortune 500 company that offers tuition assistance, but have chosen to educate myself with all of the various resources available. There are many reasons for this personal pursuit: I am extremely intellectually curious, autodidacts have great research and critical thinking skills, I don't want to limit myself to a narrow education but desire to learn about the intracacies of many different fields ( I love mathematics and plan to teach myself as much as possible; I took up to calculus 2 in college and taught myself calculus three and diff-eq), I learn a lot faster on my own and can engineer my curriculum, etc. I was recently in a meeting where one of my friends was recognized in front of the entire staff (hedge fund accounting) for his outstanding performance (taught himself VBA and developed some programs to automate a lot of repetitive tasks) and was recently promoted to a position to help build offices in Hong Kong. In contrast, there are many other individuals at our office with multiple graduate degrees that did what they had to in order to pass and have absolutely zero intellectual curiousity. Society has placed a perpetuating burden on us that grows as standards and competetion increase. This burden is credentialism. Am I against formal education? No, my bachelors degree helped me discover my passions and opened my mind to many things. Over the past 8 months, I have taught myself VBA, currently self-studying advanced mathematics in order to learn how to value complex derivatives, self-studied and sat for the CFA level 1 examination (self-study graduate level curriculum), taught myself everything about currency trading, technical analysis, fundamental analysis (I began trading Forex on my own as it is a great passion of mine), and continue to learn set up my own curriculums and learn about many different fields. When I was at Florida State University, I skipped many of my classes and studied at home as attendence was not required. I majored in Applied Economics and remember during my Game Theory class, I showed up 4 times. 3 times for my exams and once for the first day. I obtained the second highest grade in the class and it was all due to self-study. So who's to say that formal education is superior when most of mine was self-taught?



Philologos
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Age: 83
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,987

19 Dec 2010, 10:10 pm

Simon pure autodidacts are, I suspect, rare if only because of universal public schooling. I would not quite have made it because in some areas - not all - I need some external discipline.

My schooling up through high school I would give a B+ - as opposed to the D deserved by the education brought to the U by students toward the endof the 20th century.

Undergraduate - State University - perhaps B-. Bear in mind, this included a lot of barely useful and often uninteresting breadth courses. In my field, except for perhaps three courses and the language learning, mostly I learned by listening and saying "this is wrong".

Masters - State University - different state. Give it C. I was required to take courses that mostly duplicated what I had already done.

From high school on, a large proportion of what I learned came from outside reading and research, NOT from the curriculum.

PhD - London. I was really not taking course work. Personal readimg and research.

In my junior and senior years and graduate work I benefitted from interaction with real scholars.

I totally concur that the modern American university is set up as a certifying agency. I just said so a day or so ago. That is deplorable.

At the same time, it does collect in one spot a slew of books and even a thin but important spreading of real scholars - hidden among the PC andoids and pretentious jerks.

I personally feel that the choice to university or not depends on your direction. Want to be the world's greatest linguist? Stay out of the U except for language courses, teach yourself - and wait until I am dead [I'm not arrogant, am I?]

Want to be a heavy reasearch physicist? Do the U.



marshall
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,752
Location: Turkey

19 Dec 2010, 10:19 pm

waltur wrote:
that sounds pretty disheartening.


perhaps some humor would improve your mood?

Image

www.bigfatwhale.com is fun times.

Awesome.



marshall
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,752
Location: Turkey

19 Dec 2010, 10:46 pm

visagrunt wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
What if the case is that the understanding of the field of study is what is desired, rather than a mere piece of paper? Could not the autodidact then have the possibility of a superior education?


As I said, it is possible that an autodidact has a comprehensive knowledge of a field. But it is equally possible that the autodidact does not. A credential is a statement from a third party that says, "this person followed our prescribed course of study and performed satisfactorily." An autodidact has no one's statement but his own.

I have degrees in Mathematics, Medicine and Law. Certainly the first could have been accomplished on my own, although I would have been extremely challenged to complete my thesis satisfactorily without the assistance of an advisor.

However, neither my MD nor my LLB could have been completed autodidactically. Both involved significant amounts of socratic, seminar and small group learning that could not have been accomplished alone.

Learning is not merely the accumulation and recall of fact.

I agree that specialized fields require a bit more than what can be accomplished through autodidactic learning. However, a non-specialized, non-career specific degree from an expensive 4-year university is a BS waste of money. If society didn't have an artificially high valuation for people who can afford expensive degrees this wouldn't be a problem. I still think higher education has in the past, and still does today to degree today, act as a tool to preserve the unofficial social caste system.



LKL
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Age: 50
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,402

19 Dec 2010, 11:50 pm

autodidacticism can dramatically enrich one's life, but it can almost never make one an expert in the field of study for the simple reason that autodidacts cannot test themselves on what they don't know that they don't know.



Philologos
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Age: 83
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,987

20 Dec 2010, 12:02 am

Pithy.

As to whether it is relevant -

Well, Professor H in my Master's program one lecture fired at us a horrendously WRONG statement that [I am told] made me gasp audibly - a few of us waited on him after class and told him what is what.

And Professor G made it clear he was ignorant of a basic principle of the discipline that cursory reading of almost any elementary text would have explained to him.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

By the time you get close to being doctored,. you had BETTER know more of your subject than any two of your examiners.

Often the faculty test the students on their familiarity with the myths and falsehoods that the next generation of scientists,will, we hope, correct.



marshall
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,752
Location: Turkey

20 Dec 2010, 12:05 am

LKL wrote:
autodidacticism can dramatically enrich one's life, but it can almost never make one an expert in the field of study for the simple reason that autodidacts cannot test themselves on what they don't know that they don't know.

I don't think that is universally true. Throughout my education I always preferred to have a have a deeper knowledge than what was required simply to pass the test. I also detested mindless busywork given as homework and preferred to spend my study time doing extra reading and pondering over the validity of assumptions the author was making in order to feel more solid in my understanding of the subject.



Philologos
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Age: 83
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,987

20 Dec 2010, 12:13 am

Ditto, ditto and ditto.



LKL
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Age: 50
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,402

20 Dec 2010, 12:13 am

granted: not universally true. :)

However, I would be willing to bet money that it's at least 90% true.



marshall
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,752
Location: Turkey

20 Dec 2010, 12:27 am

LKL wrote:
granted: not universally true. :)

However, I would be willing to bet money that it's at least 90% true.

I'd still contest that a one-size-fits-all model is detrimental to the remaining 10%. My main complaint has to do with the way general course requirements, liberal arts requirements, etc... are done.