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Vigilans
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22 Jan 2011, 3:52 pm

In terms of Meth 'destroying' towns, violence becomes an issue, but more or less its the fact that young people get addicted and essentially lose the race before the starting shot is fired. I support legalization of Cannabis, I'm sure many people here who also enjoy it can relate to me in hating dealing with criminals. Legalization of harder drugs, however, I am not really supportive of. There is research done into Amphetamine and MDMA and their benefits to certain psychiatric conditions. However the people who seek these drugs generally aren't the ones who 'need' them. Ecstasy culture is very prevalent around where I live and I swear, I can always tell who is a pill head, they all have the exact same wide, bleary eyed look and irrational behavior tics, and they start early, sometimes even before high school. I wonder some times if that fact that we don't have Junior High School is partly to blame. You have 12 year olds mingling with 17-18 year olds and trying to imitate them, and from my personal experience observing my peers, that is not a good thing. Perhaps if the drugs were legal this wouldn't be the case, I don't know. I definitely wish that all the money going into drugs wasn't going into the hands of criminals.



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22 Jan 2011, 4:23 pm

Drugs laws do not reduce drug use or the desire to do so. More dangerous drugs that have gained popularity in the last few decades as a direct result of drug prohibition. The criminality associated with drugs is a direct result of drug laws. Trying to control human behavior is a futile effort no matter how well intended. Legalize all drugs and let natural selection take its course.



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22 Jan 2011, 5:20 pm

I would love to see pot leagalized and taxed as heavily as the market will possibly bear, and the funds currently used to find and prosecute pot growers turned to finding and prosecuting meth cookers and sellers.

As a health care worker, I wouldn't mind if everyone who currently abuses alcohol turned to abusing pot instead; alcohol disinhibits, meaning that violent, angry people become more violent and angry and are more likely to attack, hurt, and kill other people. Pot makes people lay around at home and giggle. The only problem is the fact that it has to be burned and inhaled, which means long-term lung and pharyngeal damage.

Of course, no one should be allowed behind the wheel of a car while under the influence of anythign psychoactive, and no one under the age of 21 should be allowed to use.



Vigilans
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22 Jan 2011, 5:46 pm

If pot were legalized the government could campaign to encourage safer ways of consumption, such as vaporizing. Additionally, I have seen cereal, butter, lip balm, beer, brownies, all with THC in them, so many different ways already exist that don't involve combustion



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22 Jan 2011, 5:48 pm

LKL wrote:
I would love to see pot leagalized and taxed as heavily as the market will possibly bear, and the funds currently used to find and prosecute pot growers turned to finding and prosecuting meth cookers and sellers.

As a health care worker, I wouldn't mind if everyone who currently abuses alcohol turned to abusing pot instead; alcohol disinhibits, meaning that violent, angry people become more violent and angry and are more likely to attack, hurt, and kill other people. Pot makes people lay around at home and giggle. The only problem is the fact that it has to be burned and inhaled, which means long-term lung and pharyngeal damage.

Of course, no one should be allowed behind the wheel of a car while under the influence of anythign psychoactive, and no one under the age of 21 should be allowed to use.

Well, one can eat pot brownies, which involves no smoking.



91
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22 Jan 2011, 9:32 pm

@aceofspades

It seems you totally missed the point of what I was saying. Yes one can only take two hits if you want, most in my experience, do not though. The main point is that there is a distinguishing difference between people drink and those who smoke cannabis. While there are many people who drink to get drunk, it is not true that all people who drink do so to get drunk. All people who smoke cannabis do so to alter their mental state in some way. Two hits or ten, there is no difference the intent is the same.

@vex

Well actually there is. Please read just about any of the research into the matter by Professor Nutt of Imperial College London. His work dispels a lot of myths about cannabis being a 'soft' drug.

As to their legalization, please read my statement on the libertarian argument for legalization.


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22 Jan 2011, 9:42 pm

I'm lazy at the moment so I just searched for him on Wikipedia and while he does claim it is harmful:
"The issue of the mismatch between lawmakers' classification of recreational drugs, in particular that of cannabis, and scientific measures of their harmfulness surfaced again in October 2009, after the publication of a pamphlet[18] containing a lecture Nutt had given to the Centre for Crime and Justice Studies at King's College London in July 2009. In this, Nutt repeated his familiar view that illicit drugs should be classified according to the actual evidence of the harm they cause, and presented an analysis in which nine 'parameters of harm' (grouped as 'physical harm', 'dependence', 'and 'social harms') revealed alcohol and tobacco to be more harmful than LSD, ecstasy and cannabis. In this ranking, alcohol came fifth behind heroin, cocaine, barbiturates and methadone, and tobacco ranked ninth, ahead of cannabis, LSD and ecstasy, he said. In this classification, alcohol and tobacco appeared as Class B drugs, and cannabis was placed at the top of Class C. Nutt also argued that taking cannabis created only a "relatively small risk" of psychotic illness.[19] Nutt objected to the recent re-upgrading (after 5 years) of cannabis from a Class C drug back to a Class B drug (and thus again on a par with amphetamines), considering it politically motivated rather than scientifically justified.[14] In October 2009 Nutt had a public disagreement with psychiatrist Robin Murray in the pages of The Guardian about the dangers of cannabis in triggering psychosis.[12]"

If this information is incorrect, I apologize, 91, but it seems Prof. Nutt is of the opinion that Cannabis is not a hard drug

I don't really see how you can distinguish between one or two puffs on a pipe and a whiskey on the rocks at the end of a long day of hard work (not smoking to get high or drinking to get drunk). Either way you experience a mild buzz; which one you like is up to personal taste. You can't generalize cannabis users any more then you can generalize consumers of alcohol



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22 Jan 2011, 10:09 pm

My whole attitude on drugs has changed. i once thought you should just make everything illegal but as seeing is how thats not doing any good, make all drugs legal. :jester:


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91
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22 Jan 2011, 11:01 pm

@ vigilans

No you are correct. I referenced the wrong doctor in the discussion. The work on the subject was done by Dr. Robin Murray. Prof. Nutt was being criticized by him for speaking outside of his specialization.

As to how I distinguish in the example you provided. My response would be that, yes in your example, no difference in effect is really there. However I enjoy touring the wine regions tasting port and wines. My intention in doing so is not to alter my mental state. Though alcohol can and often is used to do so, a good deal of people do not seek to alter their state by drinking. Though I am sure weed experts exist, I can see them now, discussing the texture and flavor and mental affects... I do not think it holds to the same degree as with alcohol.


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22 Jan 2011, 11:09 pm

Of course, I see where your coming from now. A cannabis expert or connoisseur would certainly be more interested in the mental effects over the flavor or how well it has aged (weed rots :( :lol: ). I imagine touring pot-growing regions might involve setting off trip wire flares and getting shot at by rednecks in the middle of the forest



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22 Jan 2011, 11:21 pm

I have read claims that the market value of pot would drop tenfold if it were legal. That's a hell of a lot of money out of the wallets of organized crime. Tax it at some ridiculous rate like 500% or 600%, and you get a lot of extra tax revenue to fund education or social programs while still having cheaper pot.

I would legalize all drugs. Yes, including heroin and crack. No positive purpose is achieved by making them illegal, and significant unintended negative consequences result from forcing it undergound into the black market.


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22 Jan 2011, 11:24 pm

If the value of pot went down tenfold that would decrease the price from (at least around here) $10 per gram to $1, which is actually a fair price considering how little effort is required to grow marijuana



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22 Jan 2011, 11:36 pm

91: I looked up your Nutt guy and then, I was shocked.

Quote:
Professor Nutt worked as an advisor to the Ministry of Defence, Department of Health and the Home Office.[5]

He served on the Committee on Safety of Medicines where he participated in an enquiry into the use of SSRI anti-depressants in 2003. His participation was criticised as, owing to his financial interest in GlaxoSmithKline, he had to withdraw from discussions of the drug Seroxat.[13] In January 2008 he was appointed as the chairman of the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs (ACMD), having previously been Chair of the Technical Committee of the ACMD for seven years.[1]
A figure using data from a paper in the journal, The Lancet ranking the relative negative effects of different drugs. The paper was written by Nutt and included in his controversial lecture[7][14]

As ACMD chairman Nutt repeatedly clashed with government ministers over issues of drug harm and classification. In January 2009 he published in the Journal of Psychopharmacology an editorial ('Equasy – An overlooked addiction with implications for the current debate on drug harms') in which the risks associated with horse riding (1 serious adverse event every ~350 exposures) were compared to those of taking ecstasy (1 serious adverse event every ~10,000 exposures).[15] In February 2009 he was criticised by Home Secretary Jacqui Smith for stating in the paper that the drug ecstasy – a class A drug along with heroin and cocaine – was statistically no more dangerous than an addiction to horse-riding.[16] Speaking to the Daily Telegraph, Nutt said that the point was "to get people to understand that drug harm can be equal to harms in other parts of life". Jacqui Smith claimed to be "surprised and profoundly disappointed" by the remarks, and added: "I'm sure most people would simply not accept the link that he makes up in his article between horse riding and illegal drug taking". She also insisted that he apologise for his comments, and asked him to apologise also to 'the families of the victims of ecstasy'.[17]

The issue of the mismatch between lawmakers' classification of recreational drugs, in particular that of cannabis, and scientific measures of their harmfulness surfaced again in October 2009, after the publication of a pamphlet[18] containing a lecture Nutt had given to the Centre for Crime and Justice Studies at King's College London in July 2009. In this, Nutt repeated his familiar view that illicit drugs should be classified according to the actual evidence of the harm they cause, and presented an analysis in which nine 'parameters of harm' (grouped as 'physical harm', 'dependence', 'and 'social harms') revealed alcohol and tobacco to be more harmful than LSD, ecstasy and cannabis. In this ranking, alcohol came fifth behind heroin, cocaine, barbiturates and methadone, and tobacco ranked ninth, ahead of cannabis, LSD and ecstasy, he said. In this classification, alcohol and tobacco appeared as Class B drugs, and cannabis was placed at the top of Class C. Nutt also argued that taking cannabis created only a "relatively small risk" of psychotic illness.[19] Nutt objected to the recent re-upgrading (after 5 years) of cannabis from a Class C drug back to a Class B drug (and thus again on a par with amphetamines), considering it politically motivated rather than scientifically justified.[14] In October 2009 Nutt had a public disagreement with psychiatrist Robin Murray in the pages of The Guardian about the dangers of cannabis in triggering psychosis.[12]


You have to understand that in Nutt's view, neither Cannabis nor alcohol or tobacco are soft drugs. They are all pretty tough. So, basically he agrees.

Regarding the Cannabis study:
Quote:
Professor Nutt states that "there has been a lot of commentary and some research as to whether cannabis is associated with schizophrenia." It is crystal clear that people with schizophrenia use more cannabis than the general population; there is no dispute about this. The question is whether the use of cannabis contributes to the onset of psychosis including schizophrenia in a causal manner. Here the evidence, although not yet conclusive, has been mounting steadily over the past six years.

Professor Nutt contrasts a 2.6 fold increase in risk of psychosis carried by using cannabis with a twentyfold increase in risk of lung cancer if one smokes cigarettes.



Edit: Ah ok, just read the next posts.

Regarding Murray:

Quote:
Personally, I care little whether cannabis is classified as a class B or class C drug. Fourteen year olds starting daily cannabis use do not agonise over its exact classification; many do not even think it is a drug and few have any knowledge of its hazards. By comparison, most adults in the UK drink alcohol in moderation, but do so in the knowledge that drinking a bottle of vodka a day is likely to be injurious to health, and few are in favour of daily drinking from age 14 years.

Both Professor Nutt and I agree that what we need is a major educational campaign to inform the public about the risks associated with heavy use of cannabis particularly in early adolescence. Fortunately, there has been some progress in public understanding and, as a consequence, use of cannabis has been falling for the past five years.

Even Murray agrees, the issue is not about what drugs are legal or not, but what is needed is education.


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Last edited by Vexcalibur on 22 Jan 2011, 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AceOfSpades
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22 Jan 2011, 11:39 pm

91 wrote:
@aceofspades

It seems you totally missed the point of what I was saying. Yes one can only take two hits if you want, most in my experience, do not though. The main point is that there is a distinguishing difference between people drink and those who smoke cannabis. While there are many people who drink to get drunk, it is not true that all people who drink do so to get drunk. All people who smoke cannabis do so to alter their mental state in some way. Two hits or ten, there is no difference the intent is the same.

@vex

Well actually there is. Please read just about any of the research into the matter by Professor Nutt of Imperial College London. His work dispels a lot of myths about cannabis being a 'soft' drug.

As to their legalization, please read my statement on the libertarian argument for legalization.
What? You do know that getting buzzed off booze counts as altering your mental state right? How is having two hits to get buzzed having the same intent as having 3 bowls to get stoned, yet having 2 drinks means not everyone drinks to get drunk? What kind of broken logic is that? I smell a huge bias here.

And yeah, I just did a google search on Professor Nutt and I haven't seen anything from him saying marijuana is more than just a soft drug. I can only find him saying tobacco and alcohol are worse than marijuana, though he did say all drugs are dangerous. Source please? I don't like asking for sources when I can find some myself, but it's been hard to find anything claiming marijuana isn't a soft drug.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17760130/ns ... ddictions/
And this one is about a judge saying people who claim marijuana is harmless are simple, which is what a judge said while he was attacking the professor.
http://www.cannabisnews.org/united-king ... re-simple/

@ Orwell: I'm still not in favour of legalizing crack or heroin. I know for a fact alcohol is actually more harmful to your body than coke, but the addiction potential is just too high. Tobacco doesn't even get you high and it's addictive as s**t. Yeah I've heard about legalizing it would take it out of the black market, but I'm pro-life and legalizing abortion would definitely put illegal abortion doctors out of business. Putting meth, heroin, and PCP on the shelves of convenience stores would make em an even bigger target for robbery, so I'm not sure about it completely being out of the black market though fiends would target em more so than drug dealers. Hard drugs spill over from personal harm to societal harm too easily, so I think it should be kept illegal.

@ Vigilans: Yeaahhh 1 gram is enough for a fat joint which costs me as much as a pack of cigarettes.



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22 Jan 2011, 11:44 pm

I feel that 91 is talking about those who enjoy the flavor of various alcohols, especially since he mentioned wine tasting. You can certainly take a puff on a joint to 'taste' (pointless. lol) it but I don't think there is an equivalent to 'tasters' in marijuana culture



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22 Jan 2011, 11:45 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:
@ Orwell: I'm still not in favour of legalizing crack or heroin. I know for a fact alcohol is actually more harmful to your body than coke, but the addiction potential is just too high. Tobacco doesn't even get you high and it's addictive as sh**. Yeah legalizing it would take it out of organized crime, but I'm pro-life and legalizing abortion would definitely put illegal abortion doctors out of business. Hard drugs spill over from personal harm to societal harm too easily, so I think it should be kept illegal. Putting meth, heroin, and PCP on the shelves of convenience stores would make em an even bigger target for robbery.

Well, right, there is the problem of addiction, but there is absolutely no evidence that keeping these drugs illegal does anything to impact addicion rates. In fact, when Switzerland legalized heroin and had it administered to addicts who wanted it in a controlled environment under a physician's observation, they saw a massive drop in heroin addiction rates as addicts sought help for their problems, rather than hiding from society. I'm not arguing for selling crack at a drive-through, so please don't construct ridiculous straw men. All available evidence actually indicates that use and abuse of hard drugs would be significantly lower if they were legalized.


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