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leejosepho
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12 Feb 2011, 10:00 am

MCalavera wrote:
In that verse Jesus clearly said that no one comes to the Father but through him.

Yes, and that is because no one else has ever lived his exemplary life.


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ruveyn
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12 Feb 2011, 10:52 am

MCalavera wrote:

John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

.


Cousin Joshuah always did have delusions of grandeur.

ruveyn



leejosepho
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12 Feb 2011, 10:59 am

ruveyn wrote:
Cousin Joshuah always did have delusions of grandeur.

With that possibility set aside for a moment, has anyone else ever so-well exemplified HaShem?


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ruveyn
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12 Feb 2011, 11:02 am

leejosepho wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Cousin Joshuah always did have delusions of grandeur.

With that possibility set aside for a moment, has anyone else ever so-well exemplified HaShem?


Me. On my better days. It is a damned good thing I am not HaShem, else the world would be in for more pain than it already has.

ruveyn



leejosepho
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12 Feb 2011, 11:26 am

ruveyn wrote:
Me. On my better days ...

Ah well, I will admit you did just get a much-needed chuckle out of me ...


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simon_says
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12 Feb 2011, 11:31 am

I think he was probably a delusional cult leader just like all the others. It wasnt rare back then and isnt particularly rare today.

Some people are born to kneel and there is always someone willing to help them with that urge.



MCalavera
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12 Feb 2011, 6:26 pm

simon_says wrote:
I think he was probably a delusional cult leader just like all the others. It wasnt rare back then and isnt particularly rare today.

Some people are born to kneel and there is always someone willing to help them with that urge.


True and very accurate.



AlSwearengen
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13 Feb 2011, 5:13 am

I think when people think Jesus an unfortunate side-effect is that they also think of mythological aspect as and the PR campaign and the allegories and what not and it all becomes a bit hard to imagine any of his motives or his beliefs or his as anything but a non-human...which is exactly what we are supposed to think of him.
However, let's look at what we "know" (as much as we can know) and build from there.
1) Jesus was a holy man in Roman occupied lands and was Jewish.
2) We know he was very and increasingly popular with the oppressed Jews of the time.
3) We know Pontius Pilate a Roman governing the land set him to die through crucifixion.
4) Apparently after being taken down as dead and taken away by his subjects, he arose from the dead and then disappeared.

1) I believe Pontius Pilate's assertions that he was King of the Jews was no slip of the tongue. I believe that Jesus was a Holy man and as such had Spiritual credibility but moreso had a leadership claim to the Tribes of Israel through the David leadership line.

2) Above would be a great reason to be popular. In addition it would be a threat. In order to take on the Biggest most aggressive conquerors of the time how does a oppressed people and a man fast staking his claim of leader do this?

3) He becomes subversive. He starts preaching a tolerant and gentle way and becomes a morally better and purer force. He leads through his spirituality. He also makes sure that no one acts in a violent manner under his instruction. Furthermore he through talking in anologies and in sleight of tongue ways says a lot of things to the members which sound like they may mean a lot of different things and all of which have an air of wisdom, being profound and knowing an end play that the followers can not guess at but trust completely.
All of this is a threat to Pilate and Rome but if this clever gameplayer is not actually "doing anything wrong" can he act on him just being?

4) He was crucified with the normal run of the mill Jewish people and as one of them. I think this is important for being set as one of the people. He was taken down to be buried at the estate of Joseph of Arimathea. I believe that as he was allowed to be taken down and not picked clean by ravens and further was allowed to be taken away, it says two things.
Firstly he was considered a class above a mere carpenter's son and secondly that there was a collusion between the Roman (be they paid off or sympathisers).
I think that it would have been impossible for Jesus to rise from the grave if he had died on the cross and been picked clean by ravens.
I suspect a end game strategy was in place. I suspect drugs were used to feign death and then the grieving and perhaps duplicitous followers quickly too his injured, drugged and death-like body down.

He rises from the dead as an end ploy to make his point and then ascends? No I believe he disappears and allows the legend to continue. Rumour, and tales to embellish and flourish. Followers to spread the word of the incredible man that Rome could not kill and so on.

Worked well.



abaisse
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13 Feb 2011, 5:52 am

AlSwearengen wrote:

Worked well.


Off topic. Best username on WP! :thumright: Carry on.



AlSwearengen
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13 Feb 2011, 6:46 am

Just a little bit off topic but thank you.



leejosepho
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13 Feb 2011, 7:33 am

AlSwearengen wrote:
Just a little bit off topic but thank you.

I think she was only excusing her comment about your username, but I am curious about your thought here:

AlSwearengen wrote:
I think when people think Jesus an unfortunate side-effect is that they also think of mythological aspect as and the PR campaign and the allegories and what not and it all becomes a bit hard to imagine any of his motives or his beliefs or his as anything but a non-human...which is exactly what we are supposed to think of him.

Are you suggesting we should or should not think of him as non-human?

Personally, I see him as a human/mortal anointed to bear witness of his Father in the heavens.


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AlSwearengen
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13 Feb 2011, 8:01 am

No as to the first, I was joking. It has nothing to do with the subject at hand but I liked the compliment anyhow.

I don't believe he was non-human. I believe that he was smart, charismatic, wise, moral and cunning. I believe he was a "son of God" in that he was a believer and teacher of god.
I think he was likely a great leader needed for the time.
I think that the rest of the divinity associations was a beat up to drive evermore credibility to the man.Some probably by himself even. Again I see the necessity and the purpose and think he did a great job of it.
Put it this way. Try selling a message of tolerance against the oppression to a warrior tribe of antiquity. The people who see merit in a God that causes smiting and destruction to his enemies would mean that these traits are seen at least as positive. Retribution and combative style qualities and HE is trying to "sell" a be gentle and tolerant and loving message.
Can you imagine what courage, cunning and charisma would be needed for that?
Let's face it, preach anything less and the people may be in mortal peril and he as a leader would be pulling out all stops to not make that a reality whilst making his claim and leading and protecting his people spiritually.
Non-human? Nope.
Brilliant man? By any reading.



leejosepho
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13 Feb 2011, 8:10 am

AlSwearengen wrote:
I think he was likely a great leader needed for the time.
I think that the rest of the divinity associations was a beat up to drive evermore credibility to the man.Some probably by himself even. Again I see the necessity and the purpose and think he did a great job of it.

If I am hearing you correctly, I believe you and I see him from completely different vantage points. He was here only to do the will of his father, and his father's will is today still the same as it always has been and always will be.


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ruveyn
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13 Feb 2011, 8:12 am

leejosepho wrote:
AlSwearengen wrote:
I think he was likely a great leader needed for the time.
I think that the rest of the divinity associations was a beat up to drive evermore credibility to the man.Some probably by himself even. Again I see the necessity and the purpose and think he did a great job of it.

If I am hearing you correctly, I believe you and I see him from completely different vantage points. He was here only to do the will of his father, and his father's will is today still the same as it always has been and always will be.


What was His Father's will when He killed all the infants in Sodom and Gomorrah?

ruveyn



leejosepho
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13 Feb 2011, 8:16 am

ruveyn wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
AlSwearengen wrote:
I think he was likely a great leader needed for the time.
I think that the rest of the divinity associations was a beat up to drive evermore credibility to the man.Some probably by himself even. Again I see the necessity and the purpose and think he did a great job of it.

If I am hearing you correctly, I believe you and I see him from completely different vantage points. He was here only to do the will of his father, and his father's will is today still the same as it always has been and always will be.


What was His Father's will when He killed all the infants in Sodom and Gomorrah?

I could only speculate about that, but you obviously see my point: Whatever that was, it did not change 2000 years ago and it is only men lacking anointment who would even consider trying to override it.


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13 Feb 2011, 2:49 pm

Regarding Pilate being responsible for Jesus' death, it should be remembered he was sold out by the Roman collaborators in the Sanhedrin. These were men who had a good thing going with taking advantage of their own people for political and monetary gain - AND were guaranteed favor by the Romans. When the tomb of the chief priest Kayufes (I know, spelling) had been discovered, he had been buried with a coin in his mouth - obvious proof that not only was he probably very much part of the classical Roman world, but that his personal beliefs probably were not Kosher with 1st century Judaism.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer