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Kraichgauer
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28 Aug 2011, 3:24 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
NextFact wrote:
Too bad we can't put tags on all you so that conscious and intelligible people can recognize you on the spot, that would save me a lot of trouble in the real world by having advanced knowledge of who's a scripture-babbling fool mind-slave for the false god/savior that is incapable of thinking for himself.

I wish you all luck.. you'll need it. Especially the right wing gun nutter whack-job that posted above, not much anyone can do for you, you'll need all the luck you can get buddy. Keep prayin, that guy Jesus is comin' back any day now y'hear?


Incredible how people will give their minds away so readily and willingly to a false belief system such as christianity, when not even the church can provide spiritual experience to prove its claims. Religion is the suppressor of the human conscious, an intellectual disease.

and if you want to doubt my credibility I did the christian walk for over a year, almost 2 years total I followed christianity willingly and by choice, I was not raised into it. I was baptised in the holy spirit, said the sinners prayer, spake in tongues, went to church every sunday, youth group on wednesday and bible study on friday for over a year, I became even somewhat fanatical about it in a fundamentalist way. I worshiped the lord in private, prayed sincerely with all my heart, and read my bible quite often. I was the bible thumper type of guy that would go up to random people after I had a feeling from the "holy spirit" and say "god has a plan for your life and wants you to know that he loves you and that there's hope for you". Christianity was my life, it was everything to me, it was my hopes and my dreams and I was very serious about it. So I know the ropes and I know what this religion is about, probably more so than a lot of you. If you can't see through christianity for what it really is........ I don't know what to say. Think for yourself, just because somethings popular doesn't mean it's true or "the way". Don't fall back on the safety in numbers type way of thinking.

Good luck.


Might've helped had you tried out a more mainline denomination, without all the holy rolling and preachiness.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


I think it is hard for people who dive straight into the deep end without slowing down and really thinking about how it works for them, and if it works for them. Unfortunately some denominations require that you do just that, and are skeptical of anyone who isn't near as obsessive about it, and I disagree with them on that. It works for some people, of course, it seems to be how they need to do it, but most people need some moderation in their lives, including when it comes to faith.

NextFact, I would ask you to consider if you had taken on faith more as an intense obsession, than a real hearts and minds conversion. There are false sects out there, or more precisely ones more likely to do harm than good, and you may have been in one.


Uh... Are you talking me me (Kraichgauer), or NextFact?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


I don't know, the air? Thinking out load? Your comment was more of a springboard for me on that first paragraph.

Second paragraph I addressed to NextFact.


Okay. 8)

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



NextFact
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28 Aug 2011, 3:46 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
NextFact wrote:
Too bad we can't put tags on all you so that conscious and intelligible people can recognize you on the spot, that would save me a lot of trouble in the real world by having advanced knowledge of who's a scripture-babbling fool mind-slave for the false god/savior that is incapable of thinking for himself.

I wish you all luck.. you'll need it. Especially the right wing gun nutter whack-job that posted above, not much anyone can do for you, you'll need all the luck you can get buddy. Keep prayin, that guy Jesus is comin' back any day now y'hear?


Incredible how people will give their minds away so readily and willingly to a false belief system such as christianity, when not even the church can provide spiritual experience to prove its claims. Religion is the suppressor of the human conscious, an intellectual disease.

and if you want to doubt my credibility I did the christian walk for over a year, almost 2 years total I followed christianity willingly and by choice, I was not raised into it. I was baptised in the holy spirit, said the sinners prayer, spake in tongues, went to church every sunday, youth group on wednesday and bible study on friday for over a year, I became even somewhat fanatical about it in a fundamentalist way. I worshiped the lord in private, prayed sincerely with all my heart, and read my bible quite often. I was the bible thumper type of guy that would go up to random people after I had a feeling from the "holy spirit" and say "god has a plan for your life and wants you to know that he loves you and that there's hope for you". Christianity was my life, it was everything to me, it was my hopes and my dreams and I was very serious about it. So I know the ropes and I know what this religion is about, probably more so than a lot of you. If you can't see through christianity for what it really is........ I don't know what to say. Think for yourself, just because somethings popular doesn't mean it's true or "the way". Don't fall back on the safety in numbers type way of thinking.

Good luck.


Might've helped had you tried out a more mainline denomination, without all the holy rolling and preachiness.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


I was a part of the assemblies of god. My ex-pastor still preaches there and he's turned somewhat into a nutter-fear mongerer nowadays I hear, preaching about 2012, the japan earthquake etc.

If Christianity were true it's core message would be self evident to all, but it's not, something that big wouldn't need a middle man to spread its message.



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28 Aug 2011, 4:13 pm

NextFact wrote:
I was a part of the assemblies of god. My ex-pastor still preaches there and he's turned somewhat into a nutter-fear mongerer nowadays I hear, preaching about 2012, the japan earthquake etc.

If Christianity were true it's core message would be self evident to all, but it's not, something that big wouldn't need a middle man to spread its message.

NextFact, let's just get two things straight:
1) Yes, Christianity is absurd. I mean, the list goes on and on, and the continuity of the faith is only a testament to man's ability to continually delude himself, make excuses, and confabulate to protect the bad ideas sacred to him.
2) You're still off-topic on this thread, and it would be correct to consider this trolling. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet) "off-topic messages in an online community"

Fact 1 doesn't excuse Fact 2. Please be nice. Allow the theists to have this thread for their personal issues, and create another thread where you can attack Christianity, theism, etc, on your justified grounds. (Also, I'd recommend trying to present your argument as a logical syllogism. The simple reason is that some apologist is going to attack your statement saying it doesn't follow. So, what you have to do is create a logical argument using plausible premises. This doesn't mean that you won't get attacked for it, sometimes on silly reasons, but at least everyone with a brain can know that you are presenting something very defensible.) Having some notion of character also helps your case simply because it makes it clear that you can't be dismissed as "addled by sin" or some other nonsense. You'll be more effective if people believe you are a solid-thinking and honest poster.



Kraichgauer
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28 Aug 2011, 4:45 pm

NextFact wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
NextFact wrote:
Too bad we can't put tags on all you so that conscious and intelligible people can recognize you on the spot, that would save me a lot of trouble in the real world by having advanced knowledge of who's a scripture-babbling fool mind-slave for the false god/savior that is incapable of thinking for himself.

I wish you all luck.. you'll need it. Especially the right wing gun nutter whack-job that posted above, not much anyone can do for you, you'll need all the luck you can get buddy. Keep prayin, that guy Jesus is comin' back any day now y'hear?


Incredible how people will give their minds away so readily and willingly to a false belief system such as christianity, when not even the church can provide spiritual experience to prove its claims. Religion is the suppressor of the human conscious, an intellectual disease.

and if you want to doubt my credibility I did the christian walk for over a year, almost 2 years total I followed christianity willingly and by choice, I was not raised into it. I was baptised in the holy spirit, said the sinners prayer, spake in tongues, went to church every sunday, youth group on wednesday and bible study on friday for over a year, I became even somewhat fanatical about it in a fundamentalist way. I worshiped the lord in private, prayed sincerely with all my heart, and read my bible quite often. I was the bible thumper type of guy that would go up to random people after I had a feeling from the "holy spirit" and say "god has a plan for your life and wants you to know that he loves you and that there's hope for you". Christianity was my life, it was everything to me, it was my hopes and my dreams and I was very serious about it. So I know the ropes and I know what this religion is about, probably more so than a lot of you. If you can't see through christianity for what it really is........ I don't know what to say. Think for yourself, just because somethings popular doesn't mean it's true or "the way". Don't fall back on the safety in numbers type way of thinking.

Good luck.


Might've helped had you tried out a more mainline denomination, without all the holy rolling and preachiness.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


I was a part of the assemblies of god. My ex-pastor still preaches there and he's turned somewhat into a nutter-fear mongerer nowadays I hear, preaching about 2012, the japan earthquake etc.

If Christianity were true it's core message would be self evident to all, but it's not, something that big wouldn't need a middle man to spread its message.


Trust me, the Assemblies of God are hardly a mainline denomination. I was thinking more on the lines of Christians who aren't outside of American society, and who aren't sanctimonious and judgmental, such as Lutherans, Episcopalians, Methodists, Presbyterians, Congregationalists, Catholics, etc.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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28 Aug 2011, 6:58 pm

The Assemblies are rather mixed. The standard group theology is nothing that special - close to Evangelical Free as a kind of compromise between Baptist style and the Charismatics - hardly "outside American society" - though outside college town society, certainly.

Thing is, Assemblies have letr themselves become a covering federation - getting what would be independent bodies into a union.

A group we were involved with - with a rather nutty pastor and his slightly saner but formidable wife - broke up when he wanted to move them under the Assemblies roof, which would have augmented his control.



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28 Aug 2011, 7:17 pm

Philologos wrote:
The Assemblies are rather mixed. The standard group theology is nothing that special - close to Evangelical Free as a kind of compromise between Baptist style and the Charismatics - hardly "outside American society" - though outside college town society, certainly.

Thing is, Assemblies have letr themselves become a covering federation - getting what would be independent bodies into a union.

A group we were involved with - with a rather nutty pastor and his slightly saner but formidable wife - broke up when he wanted to move them under the Assemblies roof, which would have augmented his control.


I should have said Mainstream American society, as far as religion is concerned.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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28 Aug 2011, 7:28 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
I should have said Mainstream American society, as far as religion is concerned.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

I'm not sure it matters anyway, as quite arguably, mainstream American society is itself both theologically and philosophically dysfunctional. So, trying to point to "Mainstream American society" doesn't really prove anything too essential, as it isn't as if it is an incontestable fact that moderate theism is truest to the text, the tradition, or even intellectually competent enough where it should be the baseline to be judged.

That being said, as I stated NextFact was trolling. His statements were not wrong to make, only less proper in this context. Nor does it mean anything to say "Well, he had ought to have tried the more MODERATE Christianity", or "the more LIBERAL Christianity". I mean, people criticize those beliefs as well.



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28 Aug 2011, 8:10 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I should have said Mainstream American society, as far as religion is concerned.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

I'm not sure it matters anyway, as quite arguably, mainstream American society is itself both theologically and philosophically dysfunctional. So, trying to point to "Mainstream American society" doesn't really prove anything too essential, as it isn't as if it is an incontestable fact that moderate theism is truest to the text, the tradition, or even intellectually competent enough where it should be the baseline to be judged.

That being said, as I stated NextFact was trolling. His statements were not wrong to make, only less proper in this context. Nor does it mean anything to say "Well, he had ought to have tried the more MODERATE Christianity", or "the more LIBERAL Christianity". I mean, people criticize those beliefs as well.


I'm aware that mainline denominations are criticized. It's usually evangelicals who condemn mainline faiths for being too moderate or liberal. Or even for differing theological stances, such as amillinialism, infant baptism, or superseccionism.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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28 Aug 2011, 8:50 pm

NextFact wrote:
and if you want to doubt my credibility I did the christian walk for over a year, almost 2 years total I followed christianity willingly and by choice, I was not raised into it. I was baptised in the holy spirit, said the sinners prayer, spake in tongues, went to church every sunday, youth group on wednesday and bible study on friday for over a year, I became even somewhat fanatical about it in a fundamentalist way. I worshiped the lord in private, prayed sincerely with all my heart, and read my bible quite often. I was the bible thumper type of guy that would go up to random people after I had a feeling from the "holy spirit" and say "god has a plan for your life and wants you to know that he loves you and that there's hope for you". Christianity was my life, it was everything to me, it was my hopes and my dreams and I was very serious about it. So I know the ropes and I know what this religion is about, probably more so than a lot of you. If you can't see through christianity for what it really is........ I don't know what to say. Think for yourself, just because somethings popular doesn't mean it's true or "the way". Don't fall back on the safety in numbers type way of thinking.

Good luck.

Charismatic churches have a high turnover in membership and in the long term produce a lot of atheists and agnostics. I used to go to one for a while when i was 17 and visited a few others. At best they are on the fringe of orthodoxy. I found that their acceptance of me had strings attached. I go to a huge independent Baptist offshoot church now and it works out great except for the crowd size.


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28 Aug 2011, 8:52 pm

...And I found a great video clip of Pentecostals... :twisted:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHb4gs1hwck[/youtube]


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28 Aug 2011, 8:56 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
I'm aware that mainline denominations are criticized. It's usually evangelicals who condemn mainline faiths for being too moderate or liberal. Or even for differing theological stances, such as amillinialism, infant baptism, or superseccionism.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Atheists actually also will condemn mainline faiths for not taking their beliefs seriously either. Many atheists take this approach:
1) Conservative theisms are the ones true to their foundations of the faith.
2) The corrupt nature of conservative theisms are due to the foundations of the faith.
3) Therefore, theisms will either be untrue to the foundations or corrupt.

Now, you can doubt premise 1, but it, or some alteration isn't entirely ridiculous. And the reason it isn't ridiculous is because conservative theists are most direct with the disgusting and disturbing aspects of scripture and will exult in it as opposed to presenting a bowdlerized text.(which many people have claimed to observe) I mean... whatever Deut 28:15-68 means, it isn't a sunshine-y version of love, and whether conservative theists are internally consistent or not, these passages do cohere with many of their views and don't have to be ignored or pretended not to exist.



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28 Aug 2011, 9:47 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I'm aware that mainline denominations are criticized. It's usually evangelicals who condemn mainline faiths for being too moderate or liberal. Or even for differing theological stances, such as amillinialism, infant baptism, or superseccionism.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Atheists actually also will condemn mainline faiths for not taking their beliefs seriously either. Many atheists take this approach:
1) Conservative theisms are the ones true to their foundations of the faith.
2) The corrupt nature of conservative theisms are due to the foundations of the faith.
3) Therefore, theisms will either be untrue to the foundations or corrupt.

Now, you can doubt premise 1, but it, or some alteration isn't entirely ridiculous. And the reason it isn't ridiculous is because conservative theists are most direct with the disgusting and disturbing aspects of scripture and will exult in it as opposed to presenting a bowdlerized text.(which many people have claimed to observe) I mean... whatever Deut 28:15-68 means, it isn't a sunshine-y version of love, and whether conservative theists are internally consistent or not, these passages do cohere with many of their views and don't have to be ignored or pretended not to exist.


Then those atheists are falling into the same tired propaganda that evangelicals do, as many mainline denominations are actually more or less conservative theologically, but don't go in for the evangelical type of worship.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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28 Aug 2011, 10:19 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
but don't go in for the evangelical type of worship.

Out of interest (and hopefully to un-derail the thread as well), what type of worship would your type of church not go for? How would they do it differently?


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28 Aug 2011, 10:30 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Then those atheists are falling into the same tired propaganda that evangelicals do, as many mainline denominations are actually more or less conservative theologically, but don't go in for the evangelical type of worship.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

..... Given that I said nothing about style, I don't know the point of your post.

You can question whether conservative Christians are theologically correct. You can question whether perversity within conservative Christian faiths are due to theological correctness. However, I said nothing about style. Instead, I was thinking more about doctrines such as the atonement, hell, Original Sin, and everything else that to many people looks absolutely absurd.



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29 Aug 2011, 1:21 am

Ancalagon wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
but don't go in for the evangelical type of worship.

Out of interest (and hopefully to un-derail the thread as well), what type of worship would your type of church not go for? How would they do it differently?


We would not go for the emphasis on experience and emotion, with alter calls and non-liturgical worship. With this kind of worship, the emphasis seems to be on the worshiper and what the worshiper feels, rather than on Christ. On top of that, the extreme emotion common to that kind of worship is mistaken for being touched by the Holy Spirit.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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29 Aug 2011, 1:28 am

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Then those atheists are falling into the same tired propaganda that evangelicals do, as many mainline denominations are actually more or less conservative theologically, but don't go in for the evangelical type of worship.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

..... Given that I said nothing about style, I don't know the point of your post.

You can question whether conservative Christians are theologically correct. You can question whether perversity within conservative Christian faiths are due to theological correctness. However, I said nothing about style. Instead, I was thinking more about doctrines such as the atonement, hell, Original Sin, and everything else that to many people looks absolutely absurd.


You do realize that in Christendom the liturgical churches are the conservatives - the more so the further east you get [up to a point, I do not want to judge between St Thomas Christians, Armenians and Copts] The Fundamentalist / Evangelicals and the Pentecostals are conservative relative to a very recent and local set of innovations.