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How do you lot manage to stick with a religion?

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wcoltd
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30 Aug 2011, 11:53 am

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
MidlifeAspie wrote:
Knifey wrote:
Nexus wrote:
My point is, why even believe in a god at all; if god is an irrelevant concept to understanding reality? God essentially becomes powerless if he is attributed to being nothing more than the physical nature of reality itself. You said so yourself, you don't need god to explain phenomena or the laws of gravity so then, what does god do that makes him so special and warrant such belief?
He intervenes in my life and makes it better.


Prove it


Why?


Because proving god exists would be the surest way to persuade others to your way of thinking. Proof constitutes knowledge it would improve your own degree of faith - to be sure god exists. It will provide you confidence that you have not wasted your entire life believing in a fiction.

Because it may well be that he or she is delusional, that god doesn't actually intervene in his life. That gods inferred existence may make his or her life worse - through lost time or whatever. Without proof there is no reason to suppose the existence of something. Proof is the only way we really find anything out about the world.



TeaEarlGreyHot
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30 Aug 2011, 11:56 am

Who says he needs to prove anything to anyone?


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wcoltd
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30 Aug 2011, 12:02 pm

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Who says he needs to prove anything to anyone?


I do, he needs to prove it in order to convince me, and any other skeptic person. Moral obligation to your fellow man ought to compel him to. If he sees a good person who is behaving in a manner not in accordance with scripture, as a christian he has a duty to try to help him from burning eternally in hell.

Now it may well be in the process of trying to convince someone to live a certain way the person comes upon the realization that they themselves are wrong.



TeaEarlGreyHot
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30 Aug 2011, 12:07 pm

wcoltd wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Who says he needs to prove anything to anyone?


I do, he needs to prove it in order to convince me, and any other skeptic person. Moral obligation to your fellow man ought to compel him to. If he sees a good person who is behaving in a manner not in accordance with scripture, as a christian he has a duty to try to help him from burning eternally in hell.

Now it may well be in the process of trying to convince someone to live a certain way the person comes upon the realization that they themselves are wrong.


I just don't see the point in trying to convince someone you're right when it comes to religion. For all we know, everyone is wrong... the religious and non-religious.


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Philologos
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30 Aug 2011, 12:37 pm

I am a case in point here. I spent 40+ years as a good atheist / agnostic [being deeply skeptical person means there is going to be some fluctuation - you cannot prove non existence, and if you keep examining data the lack of evidence will not always convince onde of nonexistence[.

In all that time nobody came trying to convince me of God's existence. My mother, who believed, did not anymore than my atheist father argued the other ways. I had some close Evangelical friends who SHOULD in theory have tried to convince me They said nothing.

Then in the course of one week out of the blue God convinced me of his existence.

You say:

"He needs to prove it in order to convince me, and any other skeptic person. Moral obligation to your fellow man ought to compel him to. If he sees a good person who is behaving in a manner not in accordance with scripture, as a christian he has a duty to try to help him from burning eternally in hell. "

Hey, mon, I have a desire to see people i care about know what will make a difference. I have NO power of persuasion unless the Spirit fills my mouth. I can'r even say anything unless I am sent and told to do it.

WHEN and IF it is part of the plan, when it is RIGHT for you and me and the outcome of the world, God will get you convinced either through some human messenger or more directly.

Til;l then - we live in a timed universe. You do not add all the ingredients to the mix at once.

If you were ANXIOUS to be convinced - which I assume you are not because a genuine seeker is unlikely to pl;ay the "prove it" line" - you still would NOT be convinced until your moment of perfect ripeness.

This ain't a campaign, you know. Happy to tell you about the event, but I'm not a recruiter.



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30 Aug 2011, 12:42 pm

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Who says he needs to prove anything to anyone?


If God exists and It cares to influence folks, then It should make Its presence clear.

So either God exists and is doing a bad job of making Its presence clear or God does not exist except as a fond wish for a world better than the world we have.

ruveyn



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30 Aug 2011, 12:58 pm

Philologos wrote:
I am a case in point here. I spent 40+ years as a good atheist / agnostic [being deeply skeptical person means there is going to be some fluctuation - you cannot prove non existence, and if you keep examining data the lack of evidence will not always convince onde of nonexistence[.

In all that time nobody came trying to convince me of God's existence. My mother, who believed, did not anymore than my atheist father argued the other ways. I had some close Evangelical friends who SHOULD in theory have tried to convince me They said nothing.

Then in the course of one week out of the blue God convinced me of his existence.

You say:

"He needs to prove it in order to convince me, and any other skeptic person. Moral obligation to your fellow man ought to compel him to. If he sees a good person who is behaving in a manner not in accordance with scripture, as a christian he has a duty to try to help him from burning eternally in hell. "

Hey, mon, I have a desire to see people i care about know what will make a difference. I have NO power of persuasion unless the Spirit fills my mouth. I can'r even say anything unless I am sent and told to do it.

WHEN and IF it is part of the plan, when it is RIGHT for you and me and the outcome of the world, God will get you convinced either through some human messenger or more directly.

Til;l then - we live in a timed universe. You do not add all the ingredients to the mix at once.

If you were ANXIOUS to be convinced - which I assume you are not because a genuine seeker is unlikely to pl;ay the "prove it" line" - you still would NOT be convinced until your moment of perfect ripeness.

This ain't a campaign, you know. Happy to tell you about the event, but I'm not a recruiter.


Very well put.


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TeaEarlGreyHot
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30 Aug 2011, 12:59 pm

ruveyn wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Who says he needs to prove anything to anyone?


If God exists and It cares to influence folks, then It should make Its presence clear.

So either God exists and is doing a bad job of making Its presence clear or God does not exist except as a fond wish for a world better than the world we have.

ruveyn


You have a very black/white, Christian view of god.

I find this interesting.


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Philologos
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30 Aug 2011, 1:01 pm

ruveyn wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Who says he needs to prove anything to anyone?


If God exists and It cares to influence folks, then It should make Its presence clear.

So either God exists and is doing a bad job of making Its presence clear or God does not exist except as a fond wish for a world better than the world we have.

ruveyn


OR you are not ripe [I was left on the tree will well over 40] OR you were not paying attention - though if he really wants you NOW he is not easy to ignore.

In any case, this IS the best of all possible worlds.

Just because I could not resist saying it does not make it less true.



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30 Aug 2011, 6:30 pm

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
MidlifeAspie wrote:
Knifey wrote:
Nexus wrote:
My point is, why even believe in a god at all; if god is an irrelevant concept to understanding reality? God essentially becomes powerless if he is attributed to being nothing more than the physical nature of reality itself. You said so yourself, you don't need god to explain phenomena or the laws of gravity so then, what does god do that makes him so special and warrant such belief?
He intervenes in my life and makes it better.


Prove it


Why?


Because it's easy to dismiss that answer as a psychological cause in which persona(s)/thought processes are generated to boosts one's own confidence, ego in life. It's tantamount to saying you having an imaginary friend/guardian who you give credit for own self-accomplishments and improvements in life. All this yet fails to suggest God had anything to do with it. You could argue the mysterious ways approach, but it begs the question, "If he's real, does God even care if you acknowledge his existence or not?" You'd think he'd make his position more clearly if he did.

Overall why have such a middle man when he's redundant? Why rob yourself of your own sense of accomplishment and fortune by attributing it to God's intervention?


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30 Aug 2011, 6:45 pm

Nexus wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
MidlifeAspie wrote:
Knifey wrote:
Nexus wrote:
My point is, why even believe in a god at all; if god is an irrelevant concept to understanding reality? God essentially becomes powerless if he is attributed to being nothing more than the physical nature of reality itself. You said so yourself, you don't need god to explain phenomena or the laws of gravity so then, what does god do that makes him so special and warrant such belief?
He intervenes in my life and makes it better.


Prove it


Why?


Because it's easy to dismiss that answer as a psychological cause in which persona(s)/thought processes are generated to boosts one's own confidence, ego in life. It's tantamount to saying you having an imaginary friend/guardian who you give credit for own self-accomplishments and improvements in life. All this yet fails to suggest God had anything to do with it. You could argue the mysterious ways approach, but it begs the question, "If he's real, does God even care if you acknowledge his existence or not?" You'd think he'd make his position more clearly if he did.

Overall why have such a middle man when he's redundant? Why rob yourself of your own sense of accomplishment and fortune by attributing it to God's intervention?


A. In third grade I invented the wolf run. I was very proud of it. Still gives me a warm feeling.

I can't prove that to you.

B. In 1975 I finally worked out the mechanism of lexical, morphologic and syntactic pitch in Sekomoo. For reasons yoi do not want to hear I was unable to get the results published.

I can't prove that to you.

C. I know what I know based on the data I have encountered,

D. So do you. How much of it can you prove? And why should you?

E. When I found my lost wallet [that I did not know was lost] in Ann Arbor, it had nothing to do with my skiulls or efflorts. Why should I claim it as an accomplishment.



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30 Aug 2011, 7:03 pm

But those things are trivial compared to the implications of god's existence. So what's your point?

I don't need to prove that I had two toasts for breakfast this morning because it's a triviality that no-one would normally care about to begin with. But if I said God influenced my life so I could find a soul mate and start a family with three healthy children, what's to say I'm not bull****ting or deluding myself into thinking that God has any relevance to my progress in life?

Also you'd be surprised how big a role the subconscious plays in your life without realising it, and that can mostly account for such moments of intuition.


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30 Aug 2011, 7:35 pm

If God wants me to believe in it, it had better do a better job then it's doing now!


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30 Aug 2011, 7:47 pm

Nexus wrote:
But those things are trivial compared to the implications of god's existence. So what's your point?

I don't need to prove that I had two toasts for breakfast this morning because it's a triviality that no-one would normally care about to begin with. But if I said God influenced my life so I could find a soul mate and start a family with three healthy children, what's to say I'm not bull****ting or deluding myself into thinking that God has any relevance to my progress in life?

Also you'd be surprised how big a role the subconscious plays in your life without realising it, and that can mostly account for such moments of intuition.


So - because God influenced my life. I have to be able to prove it.

And because you have a good life without help from God - you don't have to prove it?

You can either take my word for it that Herself is a wonderful person or you can go have another Butterbrot. I do not frankly mind if you believe it or not.

And you can take my word that I have seen what currently appears good evidence for God or you can read an improving book. Your belief or not - frankly - affects only you.



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30 Aug 2011, 7:57 pm

Nexus wrote:
But couldn't you attribute that to own mind's determination to succeed at life?
In my personal experience I could not attribute it to anything but God. My wife was very resistant to "God" being rammed down her throat when I first met her and I never forced anything on her and only answered her questions. She says her life when she was with me was supernaturally bettered and when she accepted the Holy Spirit recently she was healed from a bulged disk in her back that was pinching nerves etc. She was crippled for over a year and had many trips and x-rays to the chiropractor. Yes she did go back to the Chiropractor who told her she was healed and he couldn't explain it. My life has been full of these things happening around me, healing, prophecy, demonic manifestation and exorcism.


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30 Aug 2011, 8:34 pm

Philologos wrote:
Nexus wrote:
But those things are trivial compared to the implications of god's existence. So what's your point?

I don't need to prove that I had two toasts for breakfast this morning because it's a triviality that no-one would normally care about to begin with. But if I said God influenced my life so I could find a soul mate and start a family with three healthy children, what's to say I'm not bull****ting or deluding myself into thinking that God has any relevance to my progress in life?

Also you'd be surprised how big a role the subconscious plays in your life without realising it, and that can mostly account for such moments of intuition.


So - because God influenced my life. I have to be able to prove it.

And because you have a good life without help from God - you don't have to prove it?

You can either take my word for it that Herself is a wonderful person or you can go have another Butterbrot. I do not frankly mind if you believe it or not.

And you can take my word that I have seen what currently appears good evidence for God or you can read an improving book. Your belief or not - frankly - affects only you.


You dodged the question and trying to reflect this on forcing me to prove a negative as expected. I cannot prove that something did not influence my life, but I can prove if something else has influenced my life. But then the issue is of triviality once again, I don't really need to prove that something other than God was an influence because I'm not invoking an extraordinary claim. Most people would say, meh, whatever and not show much interest in what I say.

However you make the extraordinary claim that God influences your life, now I'll rephrase the question: How do you know that's not delusion of your mind that makes you feel that way? Are you willing to dismiss the field of psychology and understanding of how the mind works in favour of saying god is responsible?


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