How strong is the evidence that Jesus existed?

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Well either it's a myth or it was originally a biography that was later trumped up with all sorts of false miracles and other impossibilities, and that would make the Gospel's a forgery. Personally I go with the myth theory, I'm thoroughly convinced that it is. How can "scholars" sit back and accept that the Gospels are literal history, with all the fantastic miracles and the resurrection, is there something wrong with their reasoning process that they can't see that these things are impossible? I assume these same "scholars", in place of the Bible, would have accepted Cinderella or Jack and the Bean Stalk as literal history too, and would have defended them instead of Christ, credulity is not a crime after all. Or is it that they would rather not stand up against the Church and have their careers ruined? Do they just find it easier to conform and go along with it? Someone help me understand! No one with a logically sound mind can look at the Gospel and say "yea, that's literal, factual history".

I don't personally go along with something just because it's "mainstream" or widely accepted socially, in my opinion that's a terrible trap to fall into, that safety in numbers mentality. Hundreds of millions of people can be wrong.

I'm aware of the 3 day resurrection concept too. The theory is that the sun stays still on the same latitude for 3 days, as if the sun had died. But on the last day the sun rises one degree north and thus begins its journey back to the northern hemisphere gradually ending the cold winter. I don't know if this is accurate or not though, or whether this happens on those dates in December but it is a good theory. I would be curious to learn the facts about this.

One interpretation of the story is astrological, but there is more than 1 interpretation to the story. That would mean you would have to get into all sorts of occult and esoteric philosophies to find out and I don't think such subjects are very well received here. There are really so many misconceptions and stigmas about occultism and that's really unfortunate, because truly it is such an enormous and fascinating subject to explore.

Yeah, you might want to read this.

The Gospels are not considered literal history. Stop making this a false dichotomy, as we don't have "literal history" or "outright lies", but rather there is more nuance than that.

Frankly, the notion that Jesus existed historically is compatible with Jesus NOT being a supernatural being with supernatural powers.

Additionally, given that we can assign some dating to the origination of the books of the NT, and even have reason to believe these are relatively early texts rather than ones 1000 years after the event, strongly suggests they are not full of outright crap.

Yes, lots of people can be wrong, but if most doctors say that the odd lump you have on your body is cancer, you are really BEST OFF believing them, whether they are fallible or not. Lots of situations involve accepting things without personal verification.

Maybe if he sold his mind to Jesus and promoted the "Inerrancy of the Word", he wouldn't have that problem.

Yeah, what a n00b that Carrier is, what with his book used as a textbook for Early Christianity class at a University. Truly, an unaccomplished man.

As we all know, textbooks (particularly those giving definitions of the laws of logic) are utterly useless.

Last edited by Master_Pedant on 27 Nov 2011, 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Strongest reason to believe in a historical Jesus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criterion_of_embarrassment

To be fair, that book wasn't actually written as a textbook. It's just that university professors can pick whatever book they find fitting.

Wikipedia, huh. That reminds me, why didn't they include the adventures of Baby Jesus in the Bible?

The solstice is actually an instant of time when the Earth passes a particular point in its orbit around the sun. It is usually Dec 22nd. However, from an observer on Earth the sunrise and sunset positions and its path through the sky remain the same for the following 3 days. Stonehenge and places like it would have measured this. Also if you note the sunrise/sunset times throughout the year you can see the change in the length of daylight hours day by day increases/decreases most rapidly around the equinoxes, then gradually slows down around the solstices. To ancient observers they would have noted it stop at the solstice. The day we call the 25th Dec is significant in the suns annual cycle, it would have been an important day for ancient people, especially because they knew the sun was important for crop growth etc.

The constelation of Orion is perhaps the most well known of all constellations and it dominates the southern sky in midwinter. I have observed it myself and at around midnight at the winter solstice the three stars of orions belt align with the star sirius. If you follow this line it points diagonally to the sunrise position.

These are just observable phenomena that I am sure would have had great significance to the ancients who were not distracted by television and the internet. The southern cross is also a fact.

So it can be said that the sun (our saviour) dies on the cross, is dead for three days, but is then ressurected on 25th Dec. And the three kings (three stars of orions belt) follow the bright star in the east to locate the birthplace of the saviour.

To me this is the best source of the Jesus story, and Horus, and countless other religious characters from various religions around the world.

It amazes me that most of the world is duped into thinking Jesus is a real person/god when really its just a mythical character representing the Sun, which was the first "god" in human history.

Whether you believe in Jesus' divinity or not, the fact of the matter is, the Christian movement had exploded from Judea across the Roman world in the 1st century. Seutonius had written about how followers of "Chrestos" were attacked in the Jewish quarter of Rome, prompting the new Emperor, Claudius, to kick all the Jews out of the city. While Tacitus wrote of the horrors that Christians faced at the hands of Emperor Nero and his henchmen. One can not have a new religion without a founder. I think it's pretty obvious that Christ existed, regardless if you believe Christian theology or not.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Firstly it is worth mentioning that there are no shortage of atheists to attack pretty much any claim that supports Christianity. However, when real howling nonsense is put forward that attacks Christianity, the silence is deafening and the ardent skeptics tend to vanish. This is a pretty good example.

The idea that Jesus's birth relates to this concept is nonsense. None of accounts of his birth place it anywhere near December (the celebration of the 25th of December did not occur until much later; his actual birth was most likely during summer or spring). The sun does not stay still in the sky for 3 days.



It is really not accurate; the Zeitgeist movies were utter bunk. If you are looking for some info check out link NineTailedFox put up; the information is pretty good there. Otherwise Dr. Glenn Peoples did a podcast that is available through itunes on the subject where he went through all the claims of Zeitgeist.

Anyone can observe the solstice sunrise and sunset positions, they can measure the angle of ascension on these days too. They stay the same.

"The sun does not stay still in the sky for 3 days." This is incorrect. I am not saying the sun stays still in the sky, I am saying its path through the sky is the same for the 3 days of the solstice.

If Jesus was supposed to have been born in summer or spring then why do christians celebrate the birth of christ on christmas day?

Pagens celebrated the passing of winter at the spring equinox, however they would have noted its sunrise positon on the day we call the 25th Dec because that is the day that the sun makes a slightly more northern sunrise. The ancients saw this as a sign that their saviour was returning. These same ideas are present in ancient Egypt, Greece, India.....

Jesus was most likely a crazy anarchist that would have grown to be the next Che Guevara if he was born today, and did exist.

It was the Church who eventually embraced sun traditions and tried to make cult of jesus overlap with cult of the sun, because the sun cult was very popular.

I have little problem believing in Jesus the man. His story is tied into King Herods, who story is tied in with Julius Caesars and there seems to be little doubt that they existed. Jesus is also referenced in religious scripture other than the christian bible, such as the Koran. If seems very possible that he did exist, but as a prophet and there were a great number of them. It's his elevated status as the "son of god" that I find incredible.

How come there's no evidence for the Massacre of the Innocents then? Maybe it was such a small event, they didn't bother to record it, relative to his other cruel acts?