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CrazyCatLord
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10 Feb 2012, 5:50 pm

I think that nobody has the right to force a woman into the role of a living incubator against her will. No matter how I personally feel about abortion, only pregnant women can decide if they want to carry an embryo or fetus to terms or not. Society can't make that decision for the pregnant individual.



CrazyCatLord
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10 Feb 2012, 5:58 pm

donnie_darko wrote:
I'm against it but for some reason, it doesn't bother me that much that it's legal. What bothers me is how weak the arguments in favor of abortion are. Most of the same arguments could be used to justify infanticide.


I don't think that anybody is in favor of abortion. I'm certainly not. I'm merely in favor of leaving the choice to the individual woman. Pro-choice is not pro-abortion or anti-life. The so-called pro-life position is anti-choice though.

Infanticide is an entirely different ball game. If the child is already born, or if the fetus is old enough to survive a pregnancy termination (which would be a C-section or induced premature birth in this case), the mother can give it up for adoption. But a woman who finds herself six weeks pregnant and doesn't want to go through pregnancy for whatever reason doesn't have that option.



JNathanK
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10 Feb 2012, 6:11 pm

I support abbortion where rape, underage pregnancy, and health complications are concerned.

I don't think it should be performed in the latest trimesters (which there arre already laws against), and I think birth control, contraception, abstinence, and safe sex education should all be taught to deter unwanted pregnancy.



Last edited by JNathanK on 10 Feb 2012, 6:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Fnord
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10 Feb 2012, 6:13 pm

If it ain't your womb, why should you even be concerned?



Abgal64
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10 Feb 2012, 6:15 pm

CrazyCatLord wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
I'm against it but for some reason, it doesn't bother me that much that it's legal. What bothers me is how weak the arguments in favor of abortion are. Most of the same arguments could be used to justify infanticide.


I don't think that anybody is in favor of abortion. I'm certainly not. I'm merely in favor of leaving the choice to the individual woman. Pro-choice is not pro-abortion or anti-life. The so-called pro-life position is anti-choice though.

Infanticide is an entirely different ball game. If the child is already born, or if the fetus is old enough to survive a pregnancy termination (which would be a C-section or induced premature birth in this case), the mother can give it up for adoption. But a woman who finds herself six weeks pregnant and doesn't want to go through pregnancy for whatever reason doesn't have that option.
I support legalizing infanticide, especially when women were denied the right to an abortion and when the baby is clearly defective. But yes, your point about the difference between infanticide and abortion is certainly valid, though it becomes less clear for infants that cannot live (in the biological sense of the word) normally.

BTW, I am also annoyed by the terms used by both major sides in the abortion debate: I suggest "pro-abortable" and "anti-abortable" for what the respective sides call "pro-choice" and "pro-life."


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10 Feb 2012, 6:18 pm

donnie_darko wrote:
Honestly I'm tired of debating abortion. Nobody is ever convinced to change their mind on it from a debate and it only leads to hurt feelings and indignation on both sides to discuss it.


This is precisely why I say that women should be the final arbiter when making such a decision, and that men who want to debate the issue should only speak from the standpoint of issues that affect them.



Vexcalibur
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10 Feb 2012, 6:47 pm

Never an optimal solution (the best solution would be to have enough accessible contraception around so that they are never needed).

Most of the times a necessary solution.

And all times it is an inalienable right for the woman. A right of body.

Morally it is wrong and disgusting to deny this right. Legality does not matter. Centuries ago it was illegal to free slaves, it didn't mean it was immoral to free slaves. In fact, it has always been immoral to allow slavery, and law doesn't change morality.

So, a law saying that abortion is illegal, is a immoral law. Immoral laws are meant to be broken and challenged until it gets changed.

Quote:
Honestly I'm tired of debating abortion.
Sorry, I didn't noticed out of the sound of you continuing to debate abortion in this thread.


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CrazyCatLord
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10 Feb 2012, 6:54 pm

Fnord wrote:
If it ain't your womb, why should you even be concerned?


For once I agree with you.



artrat
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10 Feb 2012, 6:59 pm

Declension wrote:
artrat wrote:
Does that mean that it's okay to kill a person with a low I.Q.?


It's not "okay", but it's probably a little bit better than killing a person with a high IQ. If you had to choose which one to kill, you should choose the one with a low IQ.

But the difference between individual humans is trivial compared to the difference between humans and other animals, and the difference between humans and fetuses.

I am also dubious about whether or not IQ captures the kind of "intelligence" that I am talking about here. Perhaps a better word would be "consciousness".

Actually dolphins are more intelligent than humans so that was a bad example earlier.

I would hate for you to go into politics with that view of life.


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CrazyCatLord
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10 Feb 2012, 7:35 pm

artrat wrote:
Actually dolphins are more intelligent than humans so that was a bad example earlier.


They are? On what do you base that statement? Or rather, what is your definition of intelligence?



Fnord
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10 Feb 2012, 7:38 pm

CrazyCatLord wrote:
artrat wrote:
Actually dolphins are more intelligent than humans so that was a bad example earlier.
They are? On what do you base that statement? Or rather, what is your definition of intelligence?

They don't marry, they don't pollute the air, and they don't run for political offices.

;)

Seriously, I'd like to know where this "more intelligent than humans" meme got started, and what evidence there is to back it up.



Vexcalibur
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10 Feb 2012, 7:41 pm

Dolphins won't be as intelligent as humans until they figure out a way to transmit information to generations bellow that does not rely on instinct or direct parenting. AKA writing.


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Fnord
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11 Feb 2012, 12:13 pm

Hey, Vex!

Nice Avatar!

;)



ruveyn
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11 Feb 2012, 12:15 pm

Fnord wrote:
Hey, Vex!

Nice Avatar!

;)

Remember, remember the 5 th of November.....

There is something appealing about Guy Fawkes. May the next time around he will succeed, rather than fail.

ruveyn



Vexcalibur
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11 Feb 2012, 2:16 pm

Fnord wrote:
Hey, Vex!

Nice Avatar!

;)
Thanks, you too. I just reverted to my old avatar once I figured out it is not Holiday season anymore.


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11 Feb 2012, 4:13 pm

I'm pro-choice, because I believe that a fully developed female with a fully developed brain that is capable of thinking and experiencing emotions should have priority over something with a brain that most likely isn't even able to process the simplest logic.