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ruveyn
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13 Oct 2012, 4:42 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
The super wealthy are completely disconnected from the rest of us. They don't share our notions of nationalism and patriotism - mom, apple pie, and Chevrolet. The fact is, a member of the American 1% has more in common with the wealthy elite in someplace like Saudi Arabia or China than they do with their own fellow Americans. They figure, why should they care about the rest of us, other than to buy politicians, and form "grass root" organizations that spout increasingly empty words like liberty and freedom while attacking those without, all the while all of us become more and more disenfranchised.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Some of the "super wealthy" came up the hard way. For example, Ed Land (he invented the polaroid filter and the instant camera, Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniac who were nobody before Apple, etc.) I think the distinction you are after is best understood by noting the difference between wealth created by work and inventiveness, versus inherited wealth. The children of the rich never had to struggle for it, so they have little or no idea about what it is to be "little people".

There is no crime or wrong to being wealthy, but it is far better to have earned or created the wealth than to have it handed to one.

ruveyn



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13 Oct 2012, 4:45 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
The super wealthy are completely disconnected from the rest of us. They don't share our notions of nationalism and patriotism - mom, apple pie, and Chevrolet. The fact is, a member of the American 1% has more in common with the wealthy elite in someplace like Saudi Arabia or China than they do with their own fellow Americans. They figure, why should they care about the rest of us, other than to buy politicians, and form "grass root" organizations that spout increasingly empty words like liberty and freedom while attacking those without, all the while all of us become more and more disenfranchised.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Some of the "super wealthy" came up the hard way. For example, Ed Land (he invented the polaroid filter and the instant camera, Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniac who were nobody before Apple, etc.) I think the distinction you are after is best understood by noting the difference between wealth created by work and inventiveness, versus inherited wealth. The children of the rich never had to struggle for it, so they have little or no idea about what it is to be "little people".

There is no crime or wrong to being wealthy, but it is far better to have earned or created the wealth than to have it handed to one.

ruveyn


But does that reflect the majority of the 'super wealthy'? that is what is relevant not that some really did climb their way up from the bottom. I mean of course its an encouraged belief that one can just work their way up with honest hard work, turns out they lie to you in school.


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ruveyn
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13 Oct 2012, 4:47 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

But does that reflect the majority of the 'super wealthy'? that is what is relevant not that some really did climb their way up from the bottom. I mean of course its an encouraged belief that one can just work their way up with honest hard work, turns out they lie to you in school.


Fine. Then explain the success of Ed Land, Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniac, Thomas Edison, George Westinghouse and Andrew Carnegie (who came from Scotland with just the clothes on his back). How did they get where they got to if it is all just a lied.

Just because you have not succeeded is no reason to believe that other people can't.

ruveyn



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13 Oct 2012, 4:49 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
I think it would be more the typical middle class that first bit describes, most of the poor I know aren't fat, apathetic or resigned to their fate. Actually people are getting sick of the BS especially those on the bottom of the financial totem pole, and people are getting angry I think when some middle class people fall into that they will be especially angry since they aren't so used to getting by on very little or nothing. Also most of the poor have mental and or physical disorders/disabilities that prevent them from functioning well enough to climb up that totem pole and its not like there is a whole lot one can do to change the system especially if they don't have wealth and power to do so. Oh and by poor I mean like homeless, near homeless or getting by on very little.....not people who can afford a house, a car, a t.v let alone cable and all this junk food you speak of those would be the lower middle class to general middle class. Once you start getting into upper middle class and above then you have the people who want to join the game and get their chance at wealth and power and can use the 'middle class' as pawns.

There is one thing to do, wait and see how this plays out and then take action when there is action to be taken...Besides I and others can feel that something is coming, like that calm before the storm but to some people that sort of talk is insanity.


In the UK we have a kind of "underclass", people living on benefits (welfare), who tend to be overweight, eat cheap / unhealthy food and live on their sofa (couch). In fairness there are plenty of fit and healthy working class people. The lower middle are basically in the same boat as the working class though now. The middle middle tend to be interested in alternative health and organic food etc, whether they actually are any healthier is debatable.. but at least they have disposable income and savings (capital).

An article in the news today reported that more people in their 20s and 30s are living with their parents than ever before. People just don't have enough money to get on the property ladder.. rents and incredibly high in my area, and it's almost impossible to get a mortgage. This is affecting the working and lower middle class the most. The 'underclass' have been pretty much written off, and the welfare system is being reduced by another 10 billion it was recently announced. I never thought I'd see genuine poverty in this country but it's coming.

I'd like to feel positive change is coming, I just fear it will get a lot worse before it starts to get better. I just try my best to live on the periphery and be detached from it all.. planet earth is a crazy place.



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13 Oct 2012, 5:05 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:

But does that reflect the majority of the 'super wealthy'? that is what is relevant not that some really did climb their way up from the bottom. I mean of course its an encouraged belief that one can just work their way up with honest hard work, turns out they lie to you in school.


Fine. Then explain the success of Ed Land, Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniac, Thomas Edison, George Westinghouse and Andrew Carnegie (who came from Scotland with just the clothes on his back). How did they get where they got to if it is all just a lied.

Just because you have not succeeded is no reason to believe that other people can't.

ruveyn


Oh, that good old Horatio Alger myth. Too bad that even in his own stories the hard working, upright poor person always received their pick up in life by a windfall or some other Deus Ex Machina storytelling device.



ruveyn
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13 Oct 2012, 5:09 pm

DancingDanny wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:

But does that reflect the majority of the 'super wealthy'? that is what is relevant not that some really did climb their way up from the bottom. I mean of course its an encouraged belief that one can just work their way up with honest hard work, turns out they lie to you in school.


Fine. Then explain the success of Ed Land, Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniac, Thomas Edison, George Westinghouse and Andrew Carnegie (who came from Scotland with just the clothes on his back). How did they get where they got to if it is all just a lied.

Just because you have not succeeded is no reason to believe that other people can't.

ruveyn


Oh, that good old Horatio Alger myth. Too bad that even in his own stories the hard working, upright poor person always received their pick up in life by a windfall or some other Deus Ex Machina storytelling device.


Then YOU answer the question I put to Sweetleaf, smarty.

These guys I named were not born rich and they succeeded. That is a fact and not a myth.

Just because you are failure or a mediocrity does not mean everyone must also be thus.

ruveyn



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13 Oct 2012, 5:13 pm

I don't know the personal biographies of all of those men and even if I did they constitute a very small sample size compared to History. I do know enough about Edison concerning his relationship with Nikola Tesla to maybe recommend that he's not the ideal Ubermensch you want to refer to for your budding Randian pantheon.



ruveyn
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13 Oct 2012, 5:19 pm

DancingDanny wrote:
I don't know the personal biographies of all of those men and even if I did they constitute a very small sample size compared to History. I do know enough about Edison concerning his relationship with Nikola Tesla to maybe recommend that he's not the ideal Ubermensch you want to refer to for your budding Randian pantheon.


The counter example DISproves the generalization. It is possible (not easy, but possible) for a person from a modest or poor background to succeed in business. Not everyone will. There is a luck factor because no one can really predict or control the market economy. But of those who give it a proper try, some will succeed.

Name another country of the world where a poor boy can possibly make it to the top without resorting to violence, fraud or theft. It can be done in the U.S. but it is not easy. There are too many impediments the are mostly of governmental origin.

ruveyn



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13 Oct 2012, 5:45 pm

ruveyn wrote:
DancingDanny wrote:
I don't know the personal biographies of all of those men and even if I did they constitute a very small sample size compared to History. I do know enough about Edison concerning his relationship with Nikola Tesla to maybe recommend that he's not the ideal Ubermensch you want to refer to for your budding Randian pantheon.


The counter example DISproves the generalization. It is possible (not easy, but possible) for a person from a modest or poor background to succeed in business. Not everyone will. There is a luck factor because no one can really predict or control the market economy. But of those who give it a proper try, some will succeed.

Name another country of the world where a poor boy can possibly make it to the top without resorting to violence, fraud or theft. It can be done in the U.S. but it is not easy. There are too many impediments the are mostly of governmental origin.

ruveyn


I agree with this but it would really help me to understand your argument better without slipping in these not so veiled Randian references to mediocrity and how anybody not in that clique is automatically a failed citizen because they're not convinced that it's cool for the Ubermensch to be an American capitalist.



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13 Oct 2012, 5:57 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:

But does that reflect the majority of the 'super wealthy'? that is what is relevant not that some really did climb their way up from the bottom. I mean of course its an encouraged belief that one can just work their way up with honest hard work, turns out they lie to you in school.


Fine. Then explain the success of Ed Land, Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniac, Thomas Edison, George Westinghouse and Andrew Carnegie (who came from Scotland with just the clothes on his back). How did they get where they got to if it is all just a lied.

Just because you have not succeeded is no reason to believe that other people can't.

ruveyn


Is that the only part of my post you read? because I did acknowledge some people have but those 'some' doesn't represent the majority of the group now do they?

I never implied my lack of success means no one else can succeed, I only suggested the majority of the 'super wealthy' did not get there through honest hard work. How did you get all that crap out of it?


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13 Oct 2012, 5:58 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:

But does that reflect the majority of the 'super wealthy'? that is what is relevant not that some really did climb their way up from the bottom. I mean of course its an encouraged belief that one can just work their way up with honest hard work, turns out they lie to you in school.


Fine. Then explain the success of Ed Land, Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniac, Thomas Edison, George Westinghouse and Andrew Carnegie (who came from Scotland with just the clothes on his back). How did they get where they got to if it is all just a lied.

Just because you have not succeeded is no reason to believe that other people can't.

ruveyn


Is that the only part of my post you read? because I did acknowledge some people have but those 'some' doesn't represent the majority of the group now do they?

I never implied my lack of success means no one else can succeed, I only suggested the majority of the 'super wealthy' did not get there through honest hard work. How did you get all that crap out of it?


Ayn Rand.



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13 Oct 2012, 6:04 pm

Curlywurly wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
I think it would be more the typical middle class that first bit describes, most of the poor I know aren't fat, apathetic or resigned to their fate. Actually people are getting sick of the BS especially those on the bottom of the financial totem pole, and people are getting angry I think when some middle class people fall into that they will be especially angry since they aren't so used to getting by on very little or nothing. Also most of the poor have mental and or physical disorders/disabilities that prevent them from functioning well enough to climb up that totem pole and its not like there is a whole lot one can do to change the system especially if they don't have wealth and power to do so. Oh and by poor I mean like homeless, near homeless or getting by on very little.....not people who can afford a house, a car, a t.v let alone cable and all this junk food you speak of those would be the lower middle class to general middle class. Once you start getting into upper middle class and above then you have the people who want to join the game and get their chance at wealth and power and can use the 'middle class' as pawns.

There is one thing to do, wait and see how this plays out and then take action when there is action to be taken...Besides I and others can feel that something is coming, like that calm before the storm but to some people that sort of talk is insanity.


In the UK we have a kind of "underclass", people living on benefits (welfare), who tend to be overweight, eat cheap / unhealthy food and live on their sofa (couch). In fairness there are plenty of fit and healthy working class people. The lower middle are basically in the same boat as the working class though now. The middle middle tend to be interested in alternative health and organic food etc, whether they actually are any healthier is debatable.. but at least they have disposable income and savings (capital).

We have some of those in the U.S as well they are called people who play the system, and take up resources that could be used for the people who really need them. Usually those people are better at navigating the processes needed to get benefits and welfare than those with actual disabilities especially when it comes to mental disorders. But not sure if its more of a problem or not in the UK, I've known of people like that here to though usually if they have kids they treat them like garbage.

An article in the news today reported that more people in their 20s and 30s are living with their parents than ever before. People just don't have enough money to get on the property ladder.. rents and incredibly high in my area, and it's almost impossible to get a mortgage. This is affecting the working and lower middle class the most. The 'underclass' have been pretty much written off, and the welfare system is being reduced by another 10 billion it was recently announced. I never thought I'd see genuine poverty in this country but it's coming.

I'd like to feel positive change is coming, I just fear it will get a lot worse before it starts to get better. I just try my best to live on the periphery and be detached from it all.. planet earth is a crazy place.


Yeah, I think it will get worse before it gets better, so I try not to obsess too much over that....but it is on my mind and the minds of others rather often. Also is that article about the UK if so that is true of the U.S as well maybe to varying extents though I mean a lot of people here are having trouble affording to move out though we might have more cheap housing, especially in more poor areas but even then and as far as I know there are not plans to reduce welfare spending in the U.S yet.


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13 Oct 2012, 6:04 pm

Oldout wrote:
Unfortunately these whizbang leaders don't realize that it is the middle class that keeps the economy going by its purchases. Therefore, as the middle class declines so will the economy decline.


This notion of giving more wealth to the wealthy and that it will trickle down is shattered to pieces when you look at Mexico. The rich their have a hell of a lot of money, and they don't want to let any of it trickle down. Its what gives them status and leverage, so why would they?



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13 Oct 2012, 6:08 pm

Exactly, when you get to enjoy the constant high of superiority over all of the little people, why would you want to give up an inch of that? The little people getting more means that your buzz gets tempered.



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13 Oct 2012, 6:13 pm

ruveyn wrote:
DancingDanny wrote:
I don't know the personal biographies of all of those men and even if I did they constitute a very small sample size compared to History. I do know enough about Edison concerning his relationship with Nikola Tesla to maybe recommend that he's not the ideal Ubermensch you want to refer to for your budding Randian pantheon.


The counter example DISproves the generalization. It is possible (not easy, but possible) for a person from a modest or poor background to succeed in business. Not everyone will. There is a luck factor because no one can really predict or control the market economy. But of those who give it a proper try, some will succeed.

Name another country of the world where a poor boy can possibly make it to the top without resorting to violence, fraud or theft. It can be done in the U.S. but it is not easy. There are too many impediments the are mostly of governmental origin.

ruveyn


Not so sure it can be done in the U.S anymore since getting to the top pretty much requires playing a twisted game now days. Most of the wealthy who have worked their way up did it a long time ago, those wealthy are either dead or will be dead leaving us with well the ones that don't fit that profile.

Name someone who has gotten to 'the top' currently who hasn't done so without resorting to those sorts of things?

Also, due to the fact that not everyone has the ability to 'succeed' on that level we have to have a system that addresses that not a system that ignores it. Not to mention even reaching some semblance of stability such as a minimum wage job and just enough to get by on isn't easy so of course getting to the top wouldn't really be easy either.


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13 Oct 2012, 6:15 pm

DancingDanny wrote:
Exactly, when you get to enjoy the constant high of superiority over all of the little people, why would you want to give up an inch of that? The little people getting more means that your buzz gets tempered.


Because than I couldn't live with myself, but that is just me.


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