30 Oct 2012, 5:07 pm
AspieRogue wrote:
The Christian God does not approve of homosexuality and perhaps that's why(commencing facetious trolling) he refuses to heel gay AIDS patients and lesbians suffering from breast or cervical cancer unless they not only get saved, but *covert* to the heterosexual lifestyle.
You cannot reconcile feminism with Christianity as the latter is inherently patriarchal and places women in a submissive role. In fact, the Catholic Church does not recognize child rape by clergy; and furthermore there are biblical passages that imply that women are their properties of their husbands and marital rape is not a sin nor an immoral act because God demands that a woman submit to sex with her husband whenever he wants it.
I'm fully aware (probably more than most people) that the Catholic Curch (and indeed Christianity) is misogynistic. I was talking about my beliefs in the past, as a child. If you read my posts earlier in the thread, you can see that I'm now an atheist.
But wow, at least we seem to agree that this one insitution is extremely patriarchal and that is a bad thing.
MarketAndChurch
Veteran
Joined: 3 Apr 2011
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,022
Location: The Peoples Republic Of Portland
30 Oct 2012, 10:31 pm
Fnord wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Doctors can be wrong and people do recover. There is nothing miraculous about it. What would be miraculous is if a surgeon amputated somebody's leg and it grew back overnight. No matter how many people pray. No matter how sincere those people are. No matter how much they believe. No matter how devout and deserving the recipient. Nothing will happen. Amputated legs will not regenerate. Prayer does not restore the severed limbs of amputees. You can electronically search through all the medical journals ever written -- there is no documented case of an amputated leg being restored spontaneously. And we know that God ignores the prayers of amputees through our own observations of the world around us. If God were answering the prayers of amputees to regenerate their lost limbs, we would be seeing amputated legs growing back every day. Isn't that odd? Why does there seem to be a plethora of 'miraculous' cures for diseases that can not be seen by the naked eye, but an utter lack of miraculous cures that are so obvious as to eliminate all doubt and skepticism whatsoever? Why won't God heal amputees?
You still have a life beyond your physical limitations, why would God break natural law to appease your emotions? The purpose of life is not limited to you, even if the purpose of life to you is... which if that is all that matters, then you are screwed, but look at Charles Krauthammer or the many paraplegics who have made something of themselves, relying on their mind and the few good limbs they do have. God forbid it should ever happen to you or someone you know, but there is more to life then these physical bodies we're stuck with.
For those of you who do not understand the language of smarmy condescendency, I'll translate this line of bullsnot for you...
Quote:
You're still alive, aren't you? Who are you that God Almighty should care? There is more to life than you, just look at all the others who've done more than you with less! Being healthy and whole doesn't matter to me, and it shouldn't matter you you, either.
This is an example of how "real" Christians try to explain away God's failure to honor His promise to amputees who ask to be restored, as stated by Jesus in Luke 11:9-13 (NIV) ...
Luke the Physician wrote:
"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"
Now, either: (1) Luke lied, and the Bible is in error; (2) Jesus lied, and He really was not the Son of God; (3) God does not keep His promises when it comes to amputees asking to have their lost limbs restored; or (4) God hates amputees.
In any case, an Almighty God would not need you to make up lame excuses for Him.
What about for the non-Christian, or even for the non-Abrahamic faiths? You are dealing with this in the Christian context, I understand, and fair enough considering it is the number one faith in the world and in this country. But what about the non-Christian person of faith, and their reading of this amputee scenario?
I am a religious humanist btw... and I express that through Judaism. I am closest in thinking to the Conservative branch, which are quite moderate, but I attend a reform synagogue. So what I had posted above was not from a Christian perspective, and I'm not justifying one's unfortunate accident, I'm just saying that in the final analysis:
- 1.) it is against Judaism to ask God for a miracle
2.) God should not break one law in order to serve your circumstance, be it catching a train mid-flight that has fallen off of a cliff, or magically rerouting an oncoming car so that you may avoid an accident. The laws of physics and gravity are laws that we should not be asking this law-giver to break.
3.) In the final analysis, there are people without limbs who are alive and filled with spirit, ambition, and surrounded by love. And there are those with their limbs perfectly intact who are dead inside, have nothing to live for, and never do anything with their lives. That's all I'm saying.
_________________
It is not up to you to finish the task, nor are you free to desist from trying.
MarketAndChurch
Veteran
Joined: 3 Apr 2011
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,022
Location: The Peoples Republic Of Portland
30 Oct 2012, 10:58 pm
Fnord wrote:
No matter how many people pray, no matter how often they pray, no matter how sincere they are, no matter how much they believe, no matter how deserving the amputee, what we know is that prayers do not inspire God to regenerate amputated legs. This happens despite what Jesus promises us in the Bible. Here are some excuses used by Christians, and the questions that they are afraid to answer without turning them back against those who ask them:
Excuse #1: "It is not part of God's plan to regenerate an amputated limb."
If God intervenes and performs miraculous cures for people dying of cancer, diabetes, and even rabies, the why does God discriminate in His plan against amputees?
Excuse #2: ""God needs to remain hidden, so restoring an amputated limb would obviate His presence."
Why should it make any sense that God would reveal Himself throughout the Old Testament, send His Son to Earth in the New Testament, and then allow people a dozen or more books that talk all about His Son's exploits, if God is trying to hide?
Excuse #3: "God always answers prayers, but sometimes his answer is 'no'."
If saying 'no' happens only sometimes, then why is God's answer to the prayer of every amputee always 'no'?
Excuse #4: "God has a higher purpose for amputees."
What is this "higher purpose"?
Why is it only amputees that have this "higher purpose", and not cancer patients, diabetics, and even people with rabies?
Excuse #5: "It's your fault, not God's, for choosing to put yourself in harm's way and lose your limbs in an attack or accident, so God is not obligated to heal you for your stupidity."
Why are people born with missing limbs treated by God in the same way that He treats amputees who lost their limbs through accidents or attacks, when those people born with missing limbs did not choose to be conceived and born in the first place?
Why are people whose choice it is to smoke has given them lung cancer that was allegedly healed by God?
Excuse #7: "God does help amputees by inspiring scientists and engineers to create artificial limbs for them!"
If God is the one who inspired scientists to discover the smallpox vaccine, then why did God wait until the 20th century to do it and allow millions of people to suffer and die from smallpox in the centuries before?
If God created all life, then He also created the smallpox virus; so why would God want to be the source of the massive suffering that smallpox caused prior to the twentieth century in the first place?
Why do we pay the scientists, given that their work is simply God's inspiration?
Excuse #8: "Your prayer will be answered in the afterlife."
Why do amputees deserve a different kind of treatment from those who are healed of other problems by God in this life?
Excuse #9: "You're taking the Bible too literally."
Is the Bible then nothing more than a collection of metaphors?
Are we to take only certain parts of the Bible literally? If so, which parts? Who says so?
Excuse #10: "You should not test God."
Under what conditions does a sincere a prayer of supplication become a test?
...
Ask any Christian these questions, and be prepared to either: (1) Receive a brush-off, like "I don't have time to give you answers", or "The Bible will provide the answers you seek"; (2) Receive some form of denigrating judgment, like "If you have to ask such questions, then you are obviously not deserving of the answers", or "Anyone born in the Spirit would have no need of understanding"; (3) Receive a direct insult, like "You wouldn't understand", or "Obviously, you were sent by Satan to try the Righteous"; or (4) Receive a convoluted and self-contradictory answer that only serves to raise more questions.
Excuse #1: "It is not part of God's plan to regenerate an amputated limb."
If God intervenes and performs miraculous cures for people dying of cancer, diabetes, and even rabies, the why does God discriminate in His plan against amputees?
Excuse #2: ""God needs to remain hidden, so restoring an amputated limb would obviate His presence."
Why should it make any sense that God would reveal Himself throughout the Old Testament, send His Son to Earth in the New Testament, and then allow people a dozen or more books that talk all about His Son's exploits, if God is trying to hide?
Excuse #3: "God always answers prayers, but sometimes his answer is 'no'."
If saying 'no' happens only sometimes, then why is God's answer to the prayer of every amputee always 'no'?
Excuse #4: "God has a higher purpose for amputees."
What is this "higher purpose"?
Why is it only amputees that have this "higher purpose", and not cancer patients, diabetics, and even people with rabies?
Excuse #5: "It's your fault, not God's, for choosing to put yourself in harm's way and lose your limbs in an attack or accident, so God is not obligated to heal you for your stupidity."
Why are people born with missing limbs treated by God in the same way that He treats amputees who lost their limbs through accidents or attacks, when those people born with missing limbs did not choose to be conceived and born in the first place?
Why are people whose choice it is to smoke has given them lung cancer that was allegedly healed by God?
Excuse #7: "God does help amputees by inspiring scientists and engineers to create artificial limbs for them!"
If God is the one who inspired scientists to discover the smallpox vaccine, then why did God wait until the 20th century to do it and allow millions of people to suffer and die from smallpox in the centuries before?
If God created all life, then He also created the smallpox virus; so why would God want to be the source of the massive suffering that smallpox caused prior to the twentieth century in the first place?
Why do we pay the scientists, given that their work is simply God's inspiration?
Excuse #8: "Your prayer will be answered in the afterlife."
Why do amputees deserve a different kind of treatment from those who are healed of other problems by God in this life?
Excuse #9: "You're taking the Bible too literally."
Is the Bible then nothing more than a collection of metaphors?
Are we to take only certain parts of the Bible literally? If so, which parts? Who says so?
Excuse #10: "You should not test God."
Under what conditions does a sincere a prayer of supplication become a test?
...
Ask any Christian these questions, and be prepared to either: (1) Receive a brush-off, like "I don't have time to give you answers", or "The Bible will provide the answers you seek"; (2) Receive some form of denigrating judgment, like "If you have to ask such questions, then you are obviously not deserving of the answers", or "Anyone born in the Spirit would have no need of understanding"; (3) Receive a direct insult, like "You wouldn't understand", or "Obviously, you were sent by Satan to try the Righteous"; or (4) Receive a convoluted and self-contradictory answer that only serves to raise more questions.
All of these you post are exactly right.
I have no problem with faith, but Christian thinking has taken it too far, and cannot be taken seriously by a good many of us anymore.
We need a New Christianity. Jesus can just be the son of God, but he doesn't have to be the messiah. he could just be a divine prophetic gift from God to the world, to set the stage for the messiah, and died for your sins. That moral people can behave morally but have no access to heaven because they don't know of this man, or have not accepted him as their messiah, is truly immoral, and makes God look terrible. Your goodness does not matter to us, your conversion does.
This world does not matter as much to the Christian because the messiah has already come... all they care for now is to get the news out. That is their preoccupation with the next life, so everyone is just treated as potential convert, and you have no reality to them other then that you might come to christ. It is a dehumanizing view.
_________________
It is not up to you to finish the task, nor are you free to desist from trying.
31 Oct 2012, 9:56 am
Following His "Sermon on the Mount" as your general philosophy is a good place to start.
_________________
The mere fact that science may not yet adequately explain an object, event, or experience does not mean the immediate explanation should automatically default to a conspiratorial, extraterrestrial, paranormal, or supernatural cause.
