Maoist Genocide Denial

Page 3 of 3 [ 43 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3

Previous topic | Next topic

thomas81
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 2 May 2012
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,147
Location: County Down, Northern Ireland

14 Nov 2012, 6:06 pm

blackelk wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

blackelk wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

Kurgan wrote:

Either all genocide denial is acceptable or no genocide denial is acceptable. Freedom of speech is for everyone—and even though only anti-semitic a**holes deny the Holocaust (just like only die hard commies deny various communist genocide), they still have the right to voice their opinion.

Which genocides were communists involved in?

Hint: Mass murder =/= genocide.

Look up a place called Ukraine.

You're referring to the holodomor i take it. Unlike Hitler's holocaust, the death of 7 million Ukrainians was not a premeditated intention on the part of Stalin. It happened because Ukrainian seperatists wanted to leave the Soviet Union. Not that I agree with Stalin or how he handled it, it is not analogous to what happened to European Jews under nazi occupied Europe.

Moreover last time i checked, Ukrainian was not an ethnicity.

I told you there would be constant apologists on here . Yes, it was premeditated. Russians saw Ukrainians as inferior people, and as a distinct ethnic group. It was punishment for resisting them.

Quote:

It was engineered by Stalin and his hangmen to teach Ukraine’s independent farmers “a lesson they would not forget” for resisting collectivization, which meant giving up their land and livestock to the state. (Ukraine was then under Soviet domination).

Stalin was Georgian, not Russian.

Kurgan
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 Apr 2012
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,132
Location: Scandinavia

14 Nov 2012, 6:11 pm

thomas81 wrote:

Kurgan wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

Kurgan wrote:

Which genocides were communists involved in?

Hint: Mass murder =/= genocide.

A good place to start would be the genocide of cossacks, which was one of the first things Lenin ever did as a dictator. If that's not enough, then Holodomor or the Great Leap Forward are grade A examples.

Cossacks, one of Russia's better known ethnicities. Right. :roll:

For the nth time no races were targeted under Mao's china.

I think you still havent understood what the word 'genocide' means.

Genocides do not need to target a specific race. Cultural racism is still racism. Mao was incredibly racistic towards ethnic minorities, though.

blackelk
Deinonychus

Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 308
Location: New York

14 Nov 2012, 6:18 pm

thomas81 wrote:

blackelk wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

blackelk wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

Kurgan wrote:

Which genocides were communists involved in?

Hint: Mass murder =/= genocide.

Look up a place called Ukraine.

I told you there would be constant apologists on here . Yes, it was premeditated. Russians saw Ukrainians as inferior people, and as a distinct ethnic group. It was punishment for resisting them.

Quote:

Stalin was Georgian, not Russian.

You're desperate and have no argument. They were still different nationalities and/or ethnic groups.

Quote:

the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

It doesn't have to be just a racial group. Georgians, or Rusians, systemetically killing Ukrainians, or them killing certain political groups, is still genocide.

_________________
"Meaninglessness inhibits fullness of life and is therefore equivalent to illness. Meaning makes a great many things endurable ? perhaps everything.?

Kurgan
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 Apr 2012
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,132
Location: Scandinavia

14 Nov 2012, 6:36 pm

thomas81 wrote:

blackelk wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

blackelk wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

Kurgan wrote:

Which genocides were communists involved in?

Hint: Mass murder =/= genocide.

Look up a place called Ukraine.

I told you there would be constant apologists on here . Yes, it was premeditated. Russians saw Ukrainians as inferior people, and as a distinct ethnic group. It was punishment for resisting them.

Quote:

Stalin was Georgian, not Russian.

And Hitler was Austrian, not German. It's still not going to change the fact that his targets were specific minorities.

Misslizard
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 18 Jun 2012
Age: 61
Gender: Female
Posts: 20,554
Location: Aux Arcs

14 Nov 2012, 7:31 pm

WATCH the film mentioned earlier,it's only 30 mnts,The name again Human Remains.
Quotes from Mao,Stalin,Hitler,etc....Watch it,really.

xenon13
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Age: 50
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,638

14 Nov 2012, 8:19 pm

There was no anti-Ukrainian genocide by Stalin. This was a war between the kulaks and the government; the kulaks never counted on Stalin's ruthlessness. Stalin said that sure you can destroy livestock, grain and implements to keep them from the collective farms, but it won't be the cities and won't be the rapid industrialisation that will take the loss, it will be you, the kulaks. These kulaks were quite powerful during the 1920s.

xenon13
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Age: 50
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,638

14 Nov 2012, 8:21 pm

By the way, shall we accuse Boris Yeltsin of genocide? Russia's population plunged under his rule as did life expectancy. Millions died prematurely because of him. So it's genocide, isn't it. These deaths occurred in the context of an economic experiment, not unlike the Great Leap Forward or the collectivisation in the USSR. So if we are to blame those who experimented for the deaths in those cases, surely Boris Yeltsin must be blamed. We're talking tens of millions here that Yeltsin caused.

thomas81
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 2 May 2012
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,147
Location: County Down, Northern Ireland

14 Nov 2012, 8:32 pm

blackelk wrote:

You're desperate and have no argument. They were still different nationalities and/or ethnic groups.

.

Not at all.

You made the point that it was the Russians who looked down upon Ukrainian Nationals. It was entirely the perogitive of Stalin, the Georgian, to curtail food supplies to the Ukraine so on that basis the opinion of the Russians would appear to be a moot point.

I don't agree with what Stalin did, nor will I attempt to apologise, condone or rationalise it. The holodomor and similar activities of the Soviet Union were horrible and I will not pretend otherwise. I will however say it is not quantifiable or analogous with genocide in the same vein of what Hitler attempted to do to the European Jews, which seems to be the line of the anti-communists on this thread.

In fact I would go as far as to say it is an insult to the Jews who died in the concentration camps not only to disregard the ethnic motive of their killings, and to score political points by making such a comparison.

Kurgan
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 Apr 2012
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,132
Location: Scandinavia

14 Nov 2012, 9:12 pm

xenon13 wrote:

These millions died because of the economic sitution, which can almost (apart from falling oil prices) entirely be blamed on the commies. Three important reasons are the Chernobyl disaster, the war in Afghanistan/Angola/ any third world playground, and the space/arms race. The former could have been avoided if the USSR didn't care more about saving a few measly rubles on securing their plant like the Americans did. The space/arms race was completely moronic from the USSR side given that the country was still torn by war in the 1950's, had less than half the GDP per capita of the US, and the leaders drove Mercedeses and Rolls Royces... but hey, they had a dog orbiting the Earth before the US did; it didn't matter that Italy, Japan, and Germany--the most war torn countries had a higher HDI already in the mid 1950's.

The alcoholism rate actually soared after Glasnost, when people discovered that their ideals were all liars and charlatans. Lastly, Russia inherited a motherf*ckinly large foreign debt alone--as a final reminder of what "the more equal ones" bought.

xenon13
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Age: 50
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,638

14 Nov 2012, 9:44 pm

Shock therapy envisaged the throwing of millions to the wolves. If you look at the Social Darwinian arguments of its proponents the deaths were intentional. Communist society caused a lack of discipline, mass misery and death will restore that discipline. Remember "we pretend to work, they pretend to pay us?"

LKL
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Age: 50
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,402

14 Nov 2012, 11:34 pm

If folks are fixated on the 'gene' part of 'genocide,' fine; we can call it mass murder, massacre, massive unnecessary deaths, or any other epithet. The point was that lots and lots of people died due to Mao's policies.

xenon13 wrote:

LKL wrote:

I've been listening to a guy named Lazlo Montgomery, who runs 'The China History Podcast,' about The Cultural Revolution. I'd had NO idea just how bad it was; Chinese history really wasn't covered at all in any of my history classes, including at the University level. I've been horrified not just by the deaths, but by the Animal-Farm-like atmosphere of thought control, the constant playing of one group off of another, and by the 'values' espoused by Mao.

I'm economically a socialist, but that guy was evil.

The Cultural Revolution was not as pervasive and as murderous as people make it out to be. Moreover, unlike Stalin, Mao did not dispose of his party rivals. It's been said that had Bukharin, for example, been not executed, he could have been a Deng Xiaoping in post-Stalin USSR.

Essentially, it's accepted that the Party was not pleased with the way the Great Leap Forward went, and Mao's party rivals eclipsed him during the 1960s, returning to more of the ways of the First Five Year Plan, that being the Stalin-Soviet inspired centralised model. The Cultural Revolution was Mao's power play, so to speak, using students and disgruntled people in general to attack the Party and his rivals but these rivals were usually made to work in factories. Liu Shaoqi did die in prison but the circumstances are murky. There were no Moscow Trials and executions. Incidentally, the Cultural Revolution was cited as justification for the Tiananmen Square Massacre; that is, Deng Xiaoping and company saw the students as being similar to the Red Guards of the Cultural Revolution period and that the protests were motivated in part by the inequalities resulting from the repudiation of aspects of Maoism. Health care under Mao for most was far better than it was in the periods following it. It's only now under Hu Jintao that they're trying to restore the level of service for the rural poor that existed under Mao.

Mao played one group off of another, over and over, switching his favor from group to group to group every time it became evident that his previous bright idea was leading to more problems than it solved. Each time he blamed it on the failure of the last ascendant group to perfectly follow his policy, and each time one faction or another was cast down, their rivals tore into them with abandon. They didn't have to die in prison, because they were hauled out by the red guard and thrown to the mobs. He bought guns with resources that were supposed to have been used to feed people. He was incredibly callous - even gleeful - at the prospect of mass death.
"Half of China may well have to die."
http://www.project-syndicate.org/commen ... -false-god
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 36,00.html

Page 3 of 3 [ 43 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3

Jump to:

Maoist Genocide Denial Post Reply New Topic

Maoist Genocide Denial