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Sherlock03
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21 Oct 2013, 9:04 pm

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ok, if you were a parent, how would you teach a little girl that she should be overwhelmed with tearful sympathy by the sight of the first homeless person she saw?
Well I wouldn't first off since I wouldn't want my kid crying and running up to someone on the street. If the emotion was not a passing thought, which is common at that age, then conditioning could be caused by continually showing the child a film or story featuring a homeless person designed to cause sadness, the parent could show emotion towards the homeless and influence the child's development, or through negative reinforcement ( the most common approach).


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starkid
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21 Oct 2013, 10:21 pm

Like many before you, you judge humans by the nature of civilization rather than by the relatively peaceful existence of non-civilized humans. Civilization was birthed from exploitation and can only exist with continued exploitation and brainwashing. What you see is the warped version of humans.

Sherlock03 wrote:
I can find no evidence that people are born good. On the contrary, from birth humans display a natural response toward greed, violence, and indifference that borders on malevolence. For example, a young child of two shows a pension for theft from those who are weaker than itself, hitting and possibly injuring those who make the child angry, and laughter at pain ( schadenfreude).


Those are survival instincts. Everyone must put herself before everyone else to some extent in order to survive; the child learns to mediate this self-interest with co-operation, but without primal self-interest, humans will not live for very long.

I challenge you to justify the statement that newborns or even toddlers show a tendency towards indifference.



LKL
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22 Oct 2013, 12:48 am

ruveyn wrote:
Sherlock03 wrote:
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They are Human and have many of the primate impulses of their primate ancestors
I have never seen other animals behave the same way that humans do. I have seen cats and fox kill for sport but it is always their prey. Humans however, appear to have a natural predisposition to harm their own kind. What other animal behaves so inexplicably?


Chimpanzees sometimes murder each other or kill the offspring of sexual rivals.

They are not cute animals at all.

ruveyn

and bonobos have sex with anything that moves. We're as closely related to bonobos as we are to chimpanzees... but we are neither bonobos, nor chimpanzees. We took a different evolutionary path, and while we will have similarities to both of them, we will also express behaviors that neither of those species show.

edit: interesting essay on human behavior.
http://sustainableman.org/the-story-of-good-vs-evil/

also relevant:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-24494230



Sherlock03
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22 Oct 2013, 7:48 am

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Like many before you, you judge humans by the nature of civilization rather than by the relatively peaceful existence of non-civilized humans. Civilization was birthed from exploitation and can only exist with continued exploitation and brainwashing. What you see is the warped version of humans.

Sherlock03 wrote:
I can find no evidence that people are born good. On the contrary, from birth humans display a natural response toward greed, violence, and indifference that borders on malevolence. For example, a young child of two shows a pension for theft from those who are weaker than itself, hitting and possibly injuring those who make the child angry, and laughter at pain ( schadenfreude).


Those are survival instincts. Everyone must put herself before everyone else to some extent in order to survive; the child learns to mediate this self-interest with co-operation, but without primal self-interest, humans will not live for very long.

I challenge you to justify the statement that newborns or even toddlers show a tendency towards indifference.
No, I judge individuals by their actions and deeds. I never said that people could not rise above their natural tendencies to become better than pure instinct. Infants and toddlers do not instinctual care to help another human in danger or pain, nor do they willingly share food. When they develop greater motor control they resort to violence in an attempt to keep what they have or take what they want. I don't understand why realization that we are born bad ( instinct, savagery or whatever you want to call it) should cause such contention and debate


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LKL
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22 Oct 2013, 6:26 pm

My niece (again, three) has shared food without prompting.



auntblabby
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22 Oct 2013, 6:30 pm

in every generation there are a few unique souls born with the kindness genes, these gifted few are responsible for the survival of the rest of the race, they keep things tipped towards civilization.



LKL
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22 Oct 2013, 7:08 pm

I don't think that she's all that unique. I certainly was no saint at that age, either, but I had to be carried out of a showing of the movie 'White Fang' because I found the end (where the nice man died, and the dog was sad) so upsetting. If children are selfish, it's because they lack an understanding of what that means to others - not in spite of such an understanding.



Sherlock03
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22 Oct 2013, 7:15 pm

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My niece (again, three) has shared food without prompting.


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in every generation there are a few unique souls born with the kindness genes, these gifted few are responsible for the survival of the rest of the race, they keep things tipped towards civilization.


Alright, obviously my points are not being listened to. So lets change it up a bit; you tell me why a little girl suddenly shares food and if kindness is a gene, which has never been proven to my knowledge, why should a person give one moment only to take later?


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Sherlock03
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22 Oct 2013, 7:27 pm

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If children are selfish, it's because they lack an understanding of what that means to others - not in spite of such an understanding.
Is't this an oxymoron statement? Whats the difference between a child who is born without understanding and a child born without an instinct of generosity?


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LKL
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22 Oct 2013, 9:10 pm

Children are born with an instinct to connect with other people, and a desire to not see other people suffer. They have to learn how to do that with experience.



Sherlock03
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22 Oct 2013, 9:23 pm

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and a desire to not see other people suffer. They have to learn how to do that with experience.


What makes you say that? Could you explain this further.


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LKL
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23 Oct 2013, 3:17 am

most children automatically want to connect with people, and automatically feel bad when they see someone or something suffering. They just don't know, to start off with, how to make those connections and how to act in ways that don't make others suffer. They have the right feelings to start with, but have to learn the right behaviors to match their intentions. If they grow up somewhere bad, where they're never taught how to behave right, they might end up thinking that it's impossible; even worse, they might grow bitter if their good intentions aren't mirrored back at them.



Sherlock03
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23 Oct 2013, 9:42 am

I have never observed or read of the behavior you mentioned in infants. Normally I have observed infants laughing at slapstick comedy (where the an individual appears to get injured). Could you provide examples to the contrary?


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LKL
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23 Oct 2013, 4:41 pm

Human infants are basically pre-term fetuses without fully developed brains, so not exactly... but they do cry when they hear others crying, and they do seek eye contact and emotional bonding with their caretakers. They might laugh at 'slapstick comedy,' but their laughter probably doesn't occur when someone actually gets hurt - ie, if the victim isn't smiling and laughing too.



Sherlock03
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23 Oct 2013, 6:10 pm

Crying does not always imply sadness. For example, a child who gets into trouble will often cry to get out of trouble, or an infant who wants food will cry till he/she is fed. Laughter can be a complex, so it would probably be hard to tell who is correct without testing.


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LKL
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23 Oct 2013, 9:18 pm

Do you think that an infant who cries when another cries is 'trying to get out of trouble'? Or that it's crying to be fed, or have his or her diaper changed?

Another point wrt. slapstick comedy: part of what makes it funny is that no one is actually getting hurt. Humor comes in part from the unexpected, the thing that seemed dangerous but isn't actually dangerous; slapstick looks like someone is getting hurt, but they're still smiling even as they say, "Whoooaaahhh!" or "OoooOOOOwwww!" so what seems painful, isn't actually, and the audience knows that. Snowball fights cease to be fun for everybody if one kid starts packing their snowballs with ice or rocks.