debtor's prisons are back

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auntblabby
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28 Jul 2014, 6:56 pm

AspieUtah wrote:

auntblabby wrote:

seems FDR said something along the lines of how when big business takes over the gov't that is corporatism/fascism. this is what we have now.

It was Benito Mussolini who coined the word "fascism." He said the it meant simply corporatism (when government is controlled by, or benefits, corporations).

well in any case that is the kind of regime we are living under right now.

AspieUtah
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28 Jul 2014, 6:57 pm

auntblabby wrote:

AspieUtah wrote:

auntblabby wrote:

seems FDR said something along the lines of how when big business takes over the gov't that is corporatism/fascism. this is what we have now.

It was Benito Mussolini who coined the word "fascism." He said the it meant simply corporatism (when government is controlled by, or benefits, corporations).

well in any case that is the kind of regime we are living under right now.

Agreed.

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sonofghandi
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29 Jul 2014, 12:49 pm

ZenDen wrote:

sonofghandi wrote:

It is illegal to federally imprison someone for debt. At the state level, however, it is not. Many states have debtor imprisonment laws on the books.

Here in Ohio, it isn't allowed under state law (it actually isn't addressed), but it is on the local level in many areas. For example, East Cleveland has a statute under the Home Rule clause of the Ohio Constitution allowing the imprisonment of anyone who cannot pay fines or fees payable to the court. I actually saw someone who had his traffic court case dismissed, but could not pay the court fees (including the "not guilty" fee), and get hauled off to spend a night in jail.

Land of the free.
With liberty and justice for all.

"It is illegal to federally imprison someone for debt."

Try not paying your taxes for a while and you may soon find someone has taken over the responsibility of housing, feeding and clothing you.

This is, I believe, the one federal exemption.

You can refuse to pay your federal taxes and not be imprisoned for it. They will garnish your wages and eventually begin removing it from your current or future Social Security benefits.

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ZenDen
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30 Jul 2014, 10:56 am

sonofghandi wrote:

ZenDen wrote:

sonofghandi wrote:

You can refuse to pay your federal taxes and not be imprisoned for it. They will garnish your wages and eventually begin removing it from your current or future Social Security benefits.

So no one is ever put in jail for not paying their taxes?

You're wrong.

sonofghandi
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30 Jul 2014, 12:14 pm

ZenDen wrote:

So no one is ever put in jail for not paying their taxes?

You're wrong.

Tax evasion and non-payment are two very different things.

Tax evasion is a form of tax fraud (such as intentionally reporting incorrect income or failure to report income, repeated failure to file tax returns, or filing income under a different person/name to avoid taxes). You get put in jail for forms of tax fraud, not for non-payment.

If you file your tax return on time and accurately, you will not go to federal prison no matter how long the debt is on the books. Although non-payment does carry ridiculous fines and absurd interest charges, which they will take back from you one way or another.

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zer0netgain
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31 Jul 2014, 7:58 am

sonofghandi wrote:

ZenDen wrote:

So no one is ever put in jail for not paying their taxes?

You're wrong.

Tax evasion and non-payment are two very different things.

Last I checked, if you don't keep paying what you don't have to give, the IRS can turn that into tax evasion.

They don't hesitate to threaten you with everything INCLUDING imprisonment for unpaid taxes.

sonofghandi
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31 Jul 2014, 9:15 am

zer0netgain wrote:

sonofghandi wrote:

ZenDen wrote:

So no one is ever put in jail for not paying their taxes?

You're wrong.

Tax evasion and non-payment are two very different things.

If you do not falsify or neglect to report anything, you cannot be imprisoned for it. Period.

But they can garnish up to 50% of ANY source of income, including SSI, welfare, unemployment, SNAP, even child support or alimony payments.

They will get their cash if you don't fudge the paperwork (even if it is indirectly from another government agency). Or you can fudge the paperwork and then they will toss you into federal prison without even blinking.

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ZenDen
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31 Jul 2014, 10:49 am

sonofghandi wrote:

ZenDen wrote:

So no one is ever put in jail for not paying their taxes?

You're wrong.

The government can call it whatever they want, and even make a huge crime out of it if you decide to not file. But the fact is if you do not file in an attempt to retain your hard earned money from the leeches, they will put you in jail. If you file and refuse to pay it's also to the gaol you'll be going.

naturalplastic
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31 Jul 2014, 12:05 pm

The OP forgot one other option: "sending them to 'debtors' colonies' on the frontier (where ever the frontier of civilization happens to be at the time)."

Thats how Georgia was founded. As a penal colony for debtors from England. It became the southernmost of the original 13. Then when the USA broke away from England they sent the debtors to Australia.

So today- get behind on your credit cards, or your student loans, or with the IRS, and...you will find yourself mining minerals on an asteroid, or living in a cave city on Mars, or the on the Moon!

Last edited by naturalplastic on 31 Jul 2014, 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mindsigh
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31 Jul 2014, 1:02 pm

naturalplastic wrote:

The OP forgot one other option: "sending them to 'debtors' colonies' on the frontier(whatever the frontier of civilization happens to be at the time)."
Thats how Georgia was founded. As a penal colony for debtors from England. It became the southernmost of the original 13. Then when the USA broke away from England they sent the debtors to Australia.
So today- get behind on your credit cards, or your student loans, or with the IRS, and...you will find yourself mining minerals on an asteroid, or living in a cave city on Mars, or the on the Moon!

I know a few people who wouldn't mind going.

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auntblabby
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31 Jul 2014, 2:12 pm

Mindsigh wrote:

naturalplastic wrote:

I know a few people who wouldn't mind going.

here here! :bounce:

sonofghandi
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01 Aug 2014, 6:51 am

ZenDen wrote:

But the fact is if you do not file in an attempt to retain your hard earned money from the leeches, they will put you in jail.

True. Very true.

ZenDen wrote:

If you file and refuse to pay it's also to the gaol you'll be going.

Not true, as long as you filed accurately the government will take other measures to their money, even if you just openly refuse to pay (which also carries a hefty fine, increasing the amount of your money they will just take).

This is just how it works. Prison for lying and fraud, taking even more of your money away for not paying.

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zer0netgain
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02 Aug 2014, 10:17 am

sonofghandi wrote:

But they can garnish up to 50% of ANY source of income, including SSI, welfare, unemployment, SNAP, even child support or alimony payments.

When they start doing that, you might as well go to prison.

You are not going to support yourself on 50% of what you have coming in if you couldn't afford to pay the tax liability in the first place. Prison would be better. Being "free" would mean struggling just to survive (if they are going after SSI, welfare, unemployment, etc....you are in no condition to pay taxes AND support yourself.

ZenDen
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02 Aug 2014, 10:45 am

sonofghandi wrote:

ZenDen wrote:

But the fact is if you do not file in an attempt to retain your hard earned money from the leeches, they will put you in jail.

True. Very true.

ZenDen wrote:

If you file and refuse to pay it's also to the gaol you'll be going.

Thanks. This is from Nolo:

"If substantial fines and penalties aren't bad enough, you can also be criminally prosecuted for tax fraud. This is what happened to actor Wesley Snipes. The U.S. Justice Department prosecuted him for tax fraud when he failed to file tax returns and filed false tax refund claims for over $10 million. He based his claims on the tax protestor argument that the domestic income of U.S. citizens and residents is not taxable. Snipes was found guilty of the misdemeanor of willfully failing to file federal income tax returns and sentenced to three years in prison."

As I previously stated, the government can make up all the names for their charges they wish BUT the fact remains: If you don't pay your taxes you WILL land in jail. And I'm not talking about a last minute capitulation to save your butt and pay a smaller amount, but refusal to pay.

Many similar cases are easily found online for your perusal.

zer0netgain
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02 Aug 2014, 8:04 pm

The evil of how the IRS works is this.

1. They tax you on what you "voluntarily" declare on your filings.

2. Your "voluntary" declaration is based on a legally mandated filing.

3. The IRS determines if you have been deceptive or fraudulent in your filing.

They make the rules, they prosecute the rules, they judge the rules.

It's a totally one-sided system. You don't really get a choice outside of learning how to do a CPA's job or hire a CPA to help you legally avoid one penny more than you absolutely have to pay.

sonofghandi
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04 Aug 2014, 8:40 am

zer0netgain wrote:

The evil of how the IRS works is this.

1. They tax you on what you "voluntarily" declare on your filings.

2. Your "voluntary" declaration is based on a legally mandated filing.

3. The IRS determines if you have been deceptive or fraudulent in your filing.

They make the rules, they prosecute the rules, they judge the rules.

It's a totally one-sided system. You don't really get a choice outside of learning how to do a CPA's job or hire a CPA to help you legally avoid one penny more than you absolutely have to pay.

It is not voluntary. Reporting your earnings is mandatory.

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