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kraftiekortie
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29 Jul 2016, 7:18 am

I've had cops get rough with me, too. I've written about it on WP, as a matter of fact.

I just think we're at an impasse. You think one thing, I think another.

You don't bother to read much of what I write. All you bother to read are the things that you are opposed to. You don't bother to mention where we agree. That's really not good. And it isn't fair, either.

I AGREE THAT BLACK PEOPLE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR OWN ACTIONS, JUST LIKE WHITE PEOPLE HAVE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR OWN ACTIONS.

This is one of those "agreeing to disagree" sorts of situations.



L_Holmes
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29 Jul 2016, 7:37 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
I've had cops get rough with me, too. I've written about it on WP, as a matter of fact.

I just think we're at an impasse. You think one thing, I think another.

You don't bother to read much of what I write. All you bother to read are the things that you are opposed to. You don't bother to mention where we agree. That's really not good. And it isn't fair, either.

I AGREE THAT BLACK PEOPLE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR OWN ACTIONS, JUST LIKE WHITE PEOPLE HAVE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR OWN ACTIONS.

This is one of those "agreeing to disagree" sorts of situations.

You don't mention where we agree, so I don't know where we agree. I'm still not sure what you agree with that I've said, other than that you are somewhat opposed to BLM, but I have made my views very clear. What I see you doing a lot is writing things that are just obvious things like, "not all cops, not all black people" etc. I have never opposed that, and that should be obvious that I don't think that. So saying it does not address the evidence or argument I am presenting. It is a red herring.

I don't even know what I've specifically said that you are opposed to, just that you seem to not like what I'm saying, and you seem to think that somehow I am denying the experience of anybody and everybody who has experienced mistreatment at the hands of police, just because I don't think it is extremely common or that it's because of racism. That is not true. What I am opposed to is the hateful rhetoric that has quite unsurprisingly sparked violence. That violence will continue to escalate until people stop minimizing what this racist group is doing on the basis that they are a black activist group. They do not care about black lives, they care about furthering their own political agenda and spreading their victim cult.

It's disgusting how people defend a group of people who has done and said such deplorable things, and they defend them because they are guilty white people who think that the best way to combat racism is to listen and believe every black person and black activist group, rather than treating them just like any other group of humans and criticizing them for their actions. It is condescending racism, it is completely hypocritical, and it is probably going to get a lot more people killed.


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kraftiekortie
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29 Jul 2016, 7:56 am

I don't do what you said I do. I listen to people, and I evaluate them, based on the merits.

I don't believe that every black activist has good ideas; if they espouse erroneous ideas, I'll call the person out on that. I would criticize their ideas to their face. Some of what they say is nonsense. Some of what people in BLM say is nonsense.

I told you that I admire the police very much. I work indirectly with them on a day-to-day basis. One of my best friends is a probation supervisor.

It doesn't mean that a few cops don't go "over the line."

This is a very complex issue, and there are no easy answers. The answer, really, is to address black-on-black crime, is for black people to address black-on-crime, too.

Yet we also have to address random shooting of suspects by cops, for spurious reasons (no matter the race of the person who was shot).

And it DOES matter that one knows actual black people.

People who don't actually meet and hang out with a certain ethnic group will have stereotypical notions pertaining to that ethnic group. Those notions are not based in reality.

A person who is statistically-minded, and has no knowledge of actual people, will not be able to convey to me the reality of those people. The person has to actually interact with these people on a day-to-day basis.

I had racist ideas as a young child before I actually met, and bonded with, black people.



adifferentname
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29 Jul 2016, 8:42 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
Why can't you at least consider another viewpoint other than your own? That's part of being an intelligent person.


You mean the viewpoints that are a parroting of the rhetoric of BLM, the viewpoints that are somebody repeating the same fallacious response over and over or the viewpoints that directly criticised and misrepresented L_Holmes?

I think it's patently obvious that he's already considered the first, in light of his criticisms of said rhetoric. He's accurately pointed out the second for what it is. The third warrants no more response than "don't misrepresent me".

DataB4 wrote:
I'd like to hear from police officers, and especially black police officers, about how to handle the very real danger they face, how to make better judgments, ETC.


You could start by reading the link provided in the post immediately above your own:

Chichikov wrote:
http://www.jaystalien.com/index.php/2016/07/19/10/


Is his "black experience" invalidated because it doesn't fit the narrative?

And in response to that repetitive nonsense regarding fear of cops. How scared would you say this BLM protestor is?



kraftiekortie
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29 Jul 2016, 8:48 am

I ain't "parroting" anything.

I informed you folks, many times, that I don't agree with some/many of BLM's precepts. Or their methods.

All in all, I'm probably more anti-BLM than pro-BLM.

Just because I believe there's racism in our society doesn't mean I'm an advocate of BLM. Get that through your thick skull.



redrobin62
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29 Jul 2016, 9:26 am

I'm not against BLM; just have some concerns.

1. People make a decision that there was excessive police brutality based off one grainy cellphone clip. Well, if the American judicial system was that simple, we may as well lay off all the prosecutors and judges right now.

2. The doctor walks into the patient's room and says, "Mr. Jones, here's the pain pills for that hamstring you pulled yesterday." "Fine, doctor," Mr. Jones replies, "but what about this arrow sticking through my head?!" "We'll deal with that later," the MD says then exits.



redrobin62
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29 Jul 2016, 9:33 am

Before anyone tears me a new one for this post ^, know I was trying to delete it but I just found out you can't delete in PPR. The above viewpoint was written in quick haste because I have an unreliable connection here in the mall.



kraftiekortie
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29 Jul 2016, 9:42 am

I don't find your post to not reflect reality, RedRobin.

Sometimes, people do see police brutality based on little evidence--perhaps to further their own agenda.

I'm not AGAINST BLM. I'm more against their methods than I am against THEM.

People who are members of BLM takes many justifiable positions, and some not so justifiable positions.



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29 Jul 2016, 10:19 am

L_Holmes wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Of course black-on-black violence is a bigger problem than cop-on-black violence. But the significant fact is, blacks by and large fear the police and don't believe said police have interest in their welfare because of the bad relationship they have with law enforcement.

I don't know where you are getting the idea that most blacks fear the police. I have not seen any evidence of this, but you keep saying it over and over. Also, you ignore the fact that many of them are criminals, and therefore should fear the police. It's because of their actions, not their skin color.

Even putting that problem aside, I don't care what they feel or believe. I care about what the facts say. And the facts do not support these ideas. Cops do not go around looking for reasons to harm or kill innocent black people. That is an insane claim to make and there is not a shred of evidence to support it.

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And no, not every white cop is a racist, but far too many interactions with cops and black citizens are so negative that blacks have little reason to give the police the benefit of the doubt anymore.
Incidentally, percentage wise, whites use drugs as much as do blacks, but you don't see cops cracking down on white neighborhoods nearly as often as they do black neighborhoods. In my fifty years here on earth, I have known white potheads (before it was legal here in Washington state), meth heads, and the like, and not a single one of them (with the exception of my brother-in-law) ever got arrested for drug use or possession. Sure, there are whites who go to prison on drug convictions, but not to nearly the extent that blacks do.

You keep making claims that you have no evidence for. You are just assuming that blacks experience tons of unfair treatment from police, and you ignore the fact that maybe all the crime in their community has a little bit to do with police targeting them. If you know that one demographic commits way more crime than another, you are going to have different responses to them. You are going to treat one as more of a threat, and you would be completely justified in doing so. If I saw a group of young black men in hoodies walking towards me on the street at night, I would feel more afraid than if it was a group of white girls. Any rational and intelligent person would, because it is a fact that young black men commit a huge amount of violent crime, whereas white girls are much less likely to be violent.

The solution to that response is for black people to stop committing so many crimes. I know that sounds racist to guilty white liberals, but that is the truth. There is a real, quantifiable reason that people, including law enforcement, are more fearful of black people than they are of others, and it's because of the actions of other black people. You say that black people are afraid of police, but you don't seem to care that the police are afraid of black people, even though that fear is much more justified. An innocent police officer is much more likely to die at the hands of a black man than an innocent black man is to die at the hands of a police officer. And even less often would the cop be accurately termed a racist.

The truth is, what you and BLM are bringing up is a not a real problem. Police don't unfairly target black people because they love killing n****rs; they justifiably target black people because they commit more crimes, and by targeting certain demographics they save more lives. Yes, there are issues with police brutality and corruption in the criminal justice system, but BLM is not talking about these things. They only care when there was a black victim that they can portray as an innocent child or "gentle giant", when in fact they are leaving out many crucial details. As long as it fits their narrative they don't care what they have to lie about.

If black people in BLM cared about black lives, they would be talking about reducing violent crime in their own communities. But instead they want to blame all their problems on white people, and be openly racist towards white people and condescendingly racist towards black people. I am opposed to that. I don't know how many times I am going to need to say this before you understand. You continually cite the experiences of a few people you know, but that is not going to cut it. You need hard evidence. You need to address my arguments directly rather than saying the same thing over and over about how it's their experience, I'm denying their experience etc. I don't CARE about their experience, I care about facts. If you don't have those, then you won't convince me.


For the UMPTEENTH TIME, it's wrong for the police to suspect all black people of crimes just because they come from crime ridden communities! And plenty of blacks from middle class suburbs get harrassed by cops, too! And what of those whites from bad neighborhoods? The police don't seem to obsessed with arresting them.
If cops are too afraid of the people they're supposed to protect, then they've chosen the wrong profession.


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kraftiekortie
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29 Jul 2016, 10:50 am

I agree with what you say.

But: sometimes, white people ARE arrested and harassed in places like trailer parks.



redrobin62
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29 Jul 2016, 11:18 am

I always find it interesting that, on the internet, I frequently come across people who know what ALL black people think or what MOST black people think or what ALL law enforcement officers are like or what MOST law enforcement officers are like.

Hell, I've been coloured for 54 years and I still only know what just ONE coloured person thinks.



adifferentname
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29 Jul 2016, 1:12 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I ain't "parroting" anything.


Good for you. That does not answer my question.

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I informed you folks, many times, that I don't agree with some/many of BLM's precepts. Or their methods.


This does not justify your implication that L_Holmes is not an intelligent person.

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All in all, I'm probably more anti-BLM than pro-BLM.


Neither does this.

Quote:
Just because I believe there's racism in our society doesn't mean I'm an advocate of BLM. Get that through your thick skull.


I never mentioned your position on BLM, merely quoted the slur you made against L_Holmes' intellect. If you can't control your urge to insult people, perhaps this discussion is not for you.

Kraichgauer wrote:
For the UMPTEENTH TIME, it's wrong for the police to suspect all black people of crimes just because they come from crime ridden communities!


Which officer or officers suspect all black people of crimes? Your hyperbole is hilarious.

redrobin62 wrote:
I always find it interesting that, on the internet, I frequently come across people who know what ALL black people think or what MOST black people think or what ALL law enforcement officers are like or what MOST law enforcement officers are like.

Hell, I've been coloured for 54 years and I still only know what just ONE coloured person thinks.


I'm convinced that what you think is pretty much irrelevant to such people. They're only interested in wearing your skin as some kind of virtue garb in order to score political points against their detractors.



kraftiekortie
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29 Jul 2016, 2:05 pm

Where in the HELL did I say that Holmes is not an intelligent person?

I said he WAS.

I think you like to provoke people.

Really...don't you have better things to do? Why don't you go see a movie or something.

You never have anything pleasant to say for some reason. Why's that?



adifferentname
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29 Jul 2016, 4:58 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Where in the HELL did I say that Holmes is not an intelligent person?


You implied it when you suggested he was not behaving in a manner that you consider contingent with being an intelligent person:

kraftiekortie wrote:
Why can't you at least consider another viewpoint other than your own? That's part of being an intelligent person.


And for the record, I stated that it was an implication, which is clear from the context, so you can turn the righteous indignation down a notch.

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I think you like to provoke people.


This from the person using personal insults. :roll:

I'd like to think that my posts are provocative, but not in the derogatory sense that you suggest. Any emotion you bring to the table belongs to you alone.

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Really...don't you have better things to do? Why don't you go see a movie or something.


I neither requested nor require your counsel on how I should manage my life.

I also find it odd that you consider participation on these boards to be a waste of time, especially considering you have nearly twenty times my post count despite being a member here for only a quarter of the time.

Quote:
You never have anything pleasant to say for some reason. Why's that?


If it's affirmation you seek, look elsewhere. Your self-esteem is neither my responsibility nor my interest.



kraftiekortie
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29 Jul 2016, 5:06 pm

Yeah yeah yeah......

You just don't have to be so nasty, that's all.

I'm here to have fun, not to be cherry-picked. What do you feel your purpose is?

I will state my opinion. If you want to cherry-pick, go right ahead. If you want to pick selected quotes, go right ahead. You probably don't even bother reading everything I write.

Where's the fun in doing this? I think you just like to harangue people for fun.

And I DON'T consider it a waste of time to be on this Board. I happen to work two jobs. Not a big deal--but I like it here on WrongPlanet. Yet I also go out in the world.

I just don't see the fun in going on a Forum in order to cherry-pick. Where's the fulfillment in that?



Last edited by kraftiekortie on 29 Jul 2016, 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

L_Holmes
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29 Jul 2016, 5:13 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Where in the HELL did I say that Holmes is not an intelligent person?

I said he WAS.

I think you like to provoke people.

Really...don't you have better things to do? Why don't you go see a movie or something.

You never have anything pleasant to say for some reason. Why's that?

He does have a point. You implied that I'm unintelligent because I'm not considering other viewpoints, even though what you seem to mean is that I'm not agreeing with other viewpoints. It honestly comes across as pretty condescending. I don't think you have bad intentions, but that is not how I'm going to be convinced.

What viewpoint is it that you think I'm not considering? The "black viewpoint"? That does not exist. Different black people have different viewpoints, even within groups like BLM. So saying that this is the experience of your black friends does not mean it applies to all or most black people, just like my experience being white does not apply to all or most white people.


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