On punching Nazis

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Having watched the video, I think that guy's ideas are a much greater threat than those of Richard Spencer, just judging by how much more popular they are. Good thing I'm not so convinced that I'm morally right and righteous that violence is justified, that could ruin a bunch of peoples' days.

I didn't watch the video. I don't think I need to, because I can't imagine any scenario in which I'd be unhappy about a nazi getting his teeth knocked out.

There are people who deserve to be punched in the face, but in the long run, it has little effect on the actual problem. Punching a Nazi does nothing to fix the underlying societal problem of bigotry. The best it can do is provide brief catharsis, which is not worth the possibility of retaliation and assault charges. So randomly punching people is not a good idea.

No-platforming just legitimizes the offending viewpoints. If, say, Westboro Baptist Church was to be shut down, they would be martyrs in the eyes of their supporters, and that might sway the opinions of those on the fence. Books that are banned from schools end up being smuggled in or read elsewhere. People don't like being told what not to do. Many people don't like censorship. By all means speak out against morally wrong opinions, and don't make these people celebrities, but don't take away their freedom of speech or they will just go underground.

Also the context of that post was the characterization that Trump was encouraging violence at his rallies and that point I made was if somebody dressed up in a Klan outfit got beat up at a Bernie rally they would be applauded. Apparently they also applaud people getting sucker punched without provocation on the street for just having opinions they dislike too, I think I was right in my assessment in them being much more violent.

Well said.

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Attacking public figures like Richard Spencer is fine, but please avoid personal attacks on other users, such as accusing them of lacking mental capacity. This is against WrongPlanet rules.

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Yeah, and now he's the President.

(I think I can probably use that joke once more before it runs out)

We must not have watched the same video, then. I don't know how anybody gets a justification of violence from that video. My guess is that you guys didn't watch it the whole way through, and stopped at the part where he describes his initial knee jerk reaction, missing the part where he questions it right afterward. It's like you went as far as that and felt as if you needn't go any further, and then forgot about his qualification.

The basic point is this: Violence is wrong, regardless, but we have different degrees of emotional reactions to such violence.

For example, someone advocates the death penalty. T1J opposes it, but he would feel immediately angry if somebody went up and just punched them for it. After all, people have a right to their opinions.

A guy goes on TV, and talks about how he thinks it would be good if we all started kidnapping and murdering babies, but stops short of direct incitement or making threats or incriminating himself. Somebody punches him for his comments. It's wrong, but T1J admits he would have a hard time feeling sorry for the victim here, because of the absolutely disgusting viewpoint expressed.

The same with a Nazi. Nazis advocate mass murder, or in the modern day at least the commission of crimes against humanity (specifically, mass deportations of ethnic or religious groups). In the 1930s and 1940s, the Nazis murdered millions of people in a brazen attempt to rid the world of Jews and other undesirables, and launched a war of aggression that resulted in the deaths of tens of millions more. Basically, a Nazi is not too different from the guy above who advocates kidnapping and murdering babies. So like the guy above, it'd be wrong to punch them, but it's hard to really feel sorry for someone like that.

People have a right to their opinions, and the government should respect that, but society, while not condoning violence, needs to make very clear that some opinions are unacceptable. Like, the advocates shouldn't go to jail for their views, but people have every right to treat them as outcasts and question the moral character of people who advocate such views--like, you wouldn't trust such a person to watch over your child, or your bank account.

Watched it all the way through, not getting that nine minutes and change of my life back.

I don't think the creator of that video, or the people arguing for Nazi punching generally (including ambivalence towards Nazi punching), have truly learned the lessons of Trump's election, which is that assuming you're always going to be in control of the levers of power inevitably bites you in the ass; both at the government level, and at the societal level. People forget how recently being pro gay, for example, could get you beaten up or worse, but yet they wish to do the same thing to ideas that they don't like, forgetting how easily it can turn on them.

The problem I have with that video is, did the guy that punch him even know who he was or was he just a thug rioter? People equate all Trump supporters with Nazi's and that's not okay.

That being said I don't feel sorry for him.

I am against using violence against any person who is not themselves a direct threat to someone else. Punching him in the face gives his message more power.

There's a reason for that ambivalence: Being pro-gay and being pro-mass murder are completely different morally speaking.

I find it curious that a lot of right-leaning people are now essentially agnostic in this regard, as though being pro-mass murder were just another valid point of view someone could take, not fundamentally any different to being pro-gay. I know you guys have accused people like me and T1J of being moral relativists, but you guys are acting like that right now.

I assure you, we favor upholding people's rights and oppose violence and violations of civil rights, but I want to make this clear: We reserve our rights, too. We have the right to criticize people who are pro-mass murder, we have the right to question their moral character, we have the right to reject them personally, we have the right to make clear to others the enormity of their views and the heinous crimes they advocate, and if someone like that comes into power we reserve the right to protest and exhaust every legal remedy to stymie their attempts at reshaping society in their image. We will not pretend that such views are as valid as being pro-gay, and wherever they are presented we will make clear that such views and the people expressing them are evil.

I agree with debating and protesting, but when anyone on any side use some violence. No matter what they say no matter how hateful they are. We should not use violence. Violence should only be used for self defense.

An 'invalid' viewpoint doesn't mean you can violently attack that person

After all the chest thumping and false bravado with these protests and violent attacks where do you think it's going to get you? Do you think that is going to win hearts and minds? What do you think its going to accomplish? Trump is going to win in a landslide in 2020 at this rate.

I agree.

Who are you addressing?

I wonder what the responses here would have been if someone had punched Minister King Samir Shabazz.