I hate capitalism

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My problems with capitalism are:

1. It reduces people to economic units, basing our worth on what we can earn and produce. We are more rounded creatures than that- what about how caring/ entertaining/ brave/ selfless we are? Those things don't have a price but they are dismissed by capitalism as worthless.

2. If people can work, all well and good, but what about those who can't? e.g. the disabled, long term sick, parents with young children, the elderly etc. They are seen as worthless in a capitalist society because they don't earn money.

3. Where is this surplus money that capitalism produces to take care of the people in point 2? Health systems in the UK and USA, at least, are collapsing. Social care is a mess. There is often very little provision for childcare while parents go out to work- and surely it would be better for parents to stay at home with their children anyway and bring them up how they want to? Not leave them to the care of strangers.

It all seems topsy turvy to me. My parents in law (in the 1960s-70s) had 4 kids and a 4 bedroom house they maintained on one person's wage (unskilled jobs). We have 1 kid and a 2 bedroom house that we are struggling to maintain on 1.5 people's wages (skilled jobs). What has changed in those decades to turn the situation of families upside down?

I genuinely want to know what is good about this extreme capitalism we live with now, where there are such extremes of wealth and poverty.

I don't think that is true.

Capitalism is a liberal philosophy. Most capitalists are not capitalists simply because they view money as an end in itself, and certainly not the only end.

I know this isn't the point you were trying to make, but being caring, entertaining, brave, and selfless are all valuable traits in any case - certainly nobody would dismiss them as worthless even in a purely monetary sense.

I also don't think that is true. Most capitalist societies have disability benefits, child benefit, paid sick leave (with long term sickness typically either making you eligible for disability benefits or some equivalent), and pensions.

There are a few angles to look at this from.

The first is to compare social services in the UK now to 18th and 19th century levels. The existence of the NHS is only possible because of capitalism.

The second is to compare the level and quality of these provisions in the UK to the level in non-capitalist countries. How long do children go to school? How good are the roads? What's the security situation like? What proportion of homes have water and energy infrastructure?

If a parent wants to stay home or go to work, that should be their choice. In large parts of the world, it's not really a choice, because there aren't jobs available for the mother.


The issue is the housing crisis. Due to high levels of regulation, most advanced economies have not allowed enough homes to be constructed to keep up with demand over the last several decades. This has dramatically driven up the price of housing, far faster than inflation. This has lots of knock-on effects on the cost of other items too. Build more enough housing and the problem goes away.

---

It's Worth Noting That if You Are A Forager Picking
Berries and Hunting Wild Life For Surviving And Even
Thriving in A Dance And Song Together in a Small Group

One Is Still Really Not Free to Pursue Their Own Interests in

Life As You Either Hunt or Forage Together or Basically Starve To Death;

True, A Dance And Song
Free After the Hunt and
Forage of the Day Will

Be Rather Intoxicating by
A Campfire At Night Together

in Union of Common Purpose of
Bonds and Binds, Where Truly the
Hunt and Forage of Life Becomes A Religion

Together to Both Survive and Thrive Yet the Reality

Is Environment Comes into Play Without Technology and
The Ability to Gain Healing Through Modern Medicine, Life
Will Also Be Rather Short and Brutish Without the Supports

Modern Capitalism Brings
By The Tools Folks Sell and
Buy to Make Both A Safer Life
With at Least a Potential For Truly

Living a Life of Liberty Without the Day
To Day Realities of Potentially Starving to Death;
Same, With Environmental Issues Like Long Droughts

in Eras of
Agriculture
As Well With No
Walmart Supported

Stores to Buy and Sell From
Far Away Still Fertile Lands ThiS WaY;

It's True Though, The Buy Routine For Some
Folks May Become An Addiction for Buying Stuff
Ya Don't Need Until One Day A Double Car Garage

Is No Longer a Home for a Hundred Thousand Dollar Four Wheel Drive;

With a Big Camper and Boat in the Backyard, With No Time Left to Use;

And Yes, While 50 Percent or So of Folks Making a 6 Figure Income Are Still
Now Living Basically Pay-Check to Pay-Check Without Accumulating Much Real

Wealth to One Day Retire, Beyond What the Government Provides With Social Security

And Additionally, It's a Well Known Fact That The Goods We Produce For Sale, whatever that
Unit of Supply and Demand May Be is Often Far Away Separated From A Forage and Hunt Together

in Human Contact
to Get Surviving and
Thriving Done to the

Point Where Living Rooms

Are No Longer For Families Sharing
the Oral Tradition of Taling Wisdom
of the Elders and New Stories From Youth

in Actual Warm and Fuzzy Human CONTACT;

So, Now We Have a Growing Pandemic of Loneliness
Depression and Anxiety Among the Younger Generations

As the Tools We Buy and Sell Are Becoming The Artificial Souls
of Who The Hell or Heaven We Even Are Now; So As Usual It's a Cost

And Benefit

Equation; True,

What Do Ya Want to
Do; Become The Things
Ya Buy or Sale or Return
Somehow to the Warm Human
Condition Naked Enough Whole Complete Together;

Indeed, There Are More Ways of Starvation Than Going Without Food or Drink...

There is the Slow Death of the Organic Human SPIRiT HeART And SoUL No Longer Fully

Human

Fed By Things
More Than Human Warmth;

And This is Precisely Why to the Chagrin
of my Money MaKinG Paternal Side of my Family

That i Didn't Go Into Business or Marketing in College to
Make that side of the Family's Number One Goal of Being
A So-Called Millionaire With Power, Status, And Position in Life...

i Understood From the Start, the Value of Human Warmth From the Side
of my Family Maternal That Held Money and Stuff as the Lowest Value of Life;

Yet Reality Bites, i Ended up Becoming Financially Independent Through Financial
Management, Information Technology, Administrating Programs, and Managing And
Supervising Other Human Beings to Get Products Out to the Customers Eventually So

Far Away
From the
Human Touch...

Doubt it Not, Humans Do Have
Organic HeARTS of Warmth and
SPiRiTS of Emotions to Warmly Connect
to Other Human Beings And the Deeper Part
of Being in the Wisdom of Organic Soul That Understands

The Human
Connection
is the Main
Source of Human
Happiness as Longitudinal
Studies over 80 Years Do Relate.

Measures of Depression of Human Beings
Are 8 Scale More Now Than the Last Economic
Depression Early Last Century During the Rise of 'The Dictators'...

What Good is it to Be Financially Independent Without an Organic Human Soul;

Been there and Done it; i Promise Ya, Ya Don't Wanna Go Yet Only if You Haven't
Already Arrived to 'the Other Place' And it's True Some Folks Have No Perspective

the Better
Place within
Even Exists Lost

in a 'Gehenna' Sinking
Deep into a World of 'Stuff'....

my 'Rich Relatives' Are Among the
Most Miserable Folks i Know; Yet
It's Clear they have little to no Perspective of

'The Other Place' With Real 'Living Rooms'

Convincing themselves still Now Yes
That They are Happy Where they are with 'STUFF'

Yet On the Other Hand, the Younger Generations
Who i Relate to, Do Understand Where They Are (Nowhere)...

AND MANY ARE READY FOR CHANGE NO MATTER WHAT IT TAKES...

And Sadly, Many Fall
into Addictions, Both
Behavioral And Substance
in An attempt to Escape;

Sadly, Some Escape and Never Return;

And True That is Another Increasing
Human Pandemic, The Escape From Human Made Hell...

As Always Some Folks Will Adapt, Survive, Thrive And Others Will

Starve And
Thirst to Death
in More than One way now...

i am No Longer Hungry or Thirsty
in Any Way Yet i Wouldn't Be Human

if i Didn't Understand the 'Condition' of the Human Condition Now;

And No, This is far More Than the Economics of Capitalism Yet Indeed
it is a Core Element of the Progenitor of Tools That Humans Are Increasingly

Becoming

So Very
Cold, Non-
Caring, and Distant Now...

At Least for those of Us
Who have the Perspective of the Other Places...

i Am Very Happy That i Navigated the System i Was
Born into Through Challenges for 53 Years, And Ended

Up Rich In Every Way Possible A Human Might Imagine to Enjoy Life;

Yet Again, What Kind of
Human Would i Be, if i Suggested
The Other Folks Who Weren't able
to 'Pull their BootStraps Up' into Great Success

Were 'Worthless;' No Human i Wanna Be And That's for God Damned Sure.

'Real Humans With Souls' Don't Leave Others 'Left Behind;' At Least in a 'Story'
Someone Told me

in a Church...

And In Other
Books of Real
Compassion;

Obviously,
Not Many
Folks Actually
Heard the Story
As Once Again
Truth Ends Up in Effect A Damned Lie.

When Humans Lose Their Compassion
For the Least Among Us They End Up Consuming Themselves Together Divided...

Anyone Else Noticing This 'Zombie Apocalypse;' Over 'Hear' it's Painted 'Orange'...

And
Gun
Grey
Metal...

Anyway Gonna Dance and Sing
As Long as This Peace Lasts For me
At Least, i've Looked Above With Science
Eyes and See the Hospitality the Other Planets
in Our Solar System Provide; i Ain't Going to 'Mars...'

i'll Go Down
With The Earth
Ship; if Necessary...

And the 'Original
Coke' Human Condition;
Naked Enough Whole Complete
With Inherent WiLL And Strength
On A Foundation of LoVE iN Peace

ToGeTHeR For Now at Least For Real..

---

i want capitalism with a human face [aka "third way" a la northern europe], not the diabolically ableist and rampantly individualist "dog-eat-dog" system as is practiced in amuuuurica. all the arguments i notice are so digital, either/or. let the richie riches continue to richie rich but at least throw a few crumbs [affordable health care that doesn't bankrupt its consumers] at those lacking the entrepreneurial genes which is most of us. ruinous medical expenses are still a leading cause of bankruptcy here in the land of the wage slave. why are only amuuurican hospital corporations and university systems allowed to be so rapacious at the expense of the common amuuurican good? why is it that only other western nations have the common decency to at least say to their richie-riches, "will ya just chip in a bit? the rest of us hafta live also!" below are two statistics that should make us question the way we're doing financial things here in the land of the unfree-

*veterans consist of 13.5% of all deaths by suicide in US adults but only make up 7.9% of the US adult population[A]
*11% of our veterans are homeless[B]
[A]https://policyadvice.net/insurance/insights/homeless-veterans-statistics/#:~:text=Veterans%20account%20for%2011%25%20of,vets%20living%20on%20the%20streets.
[B]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_veteran_suicide#:~:text=The%20report%20also%20stated%20that,of%20the%20US%20adult%20population.

we are wasting our collective money [unfair tax breaks and corporate welfare in general] on people who do not have the best interests of all americans at heart, only of their own privileged self-interest. why on earth are things like the NHL, MLB and NFL tax-exempt? why on earth should i have to pay MORE TAXES than they do??

From what I see, the caring jobs like nurse, social care, even NHS doctors don't get as high wages as people in business, finance, things like that. The caring sector in general, especially the NHS, are paid vastly less than those in non-caring jobs, especially financial ones. To me that shows caring is less valued in a capitalist society.

That is odd that capitalism is a liberal philosophy, because why in this day and age of right wing people being the majority and running most countries, are 'liberal leftie' and 'liberal' meant to be insulting? Are there different types of liberal? If people are insulting others by calling them liberals, that means the people aren't liberals themselves. I'm confused by that.




If capitalist societies have all those benefits, why are most people struggling with the cost of living crisis then? And there's a general disapproval of people on benefits, who are often called scroungers, as if they are of lower importance than those not on benefits. As if they are less important because they can't work and be economic units.

And there are actually people starving in Britain- look at the dozens of foodbanks everywhere that didn't used to exist. UNICEF are feeding children in Britain now. We are supposed to be the 5th richest country in the world- how is it possible that people are starving and struggling to live? It seems to me that as we've had capitalism for so long, isn't that to blame?



Now that does make sense, and also because the population of Britain has increased so much in the last few decades.

(I hope the quotes make sense! I cut them down because I didn't want a vastly long post!)

That's a slightly different concept to your original point.

Caring jobs do tend to be poorly compensated considering the amount of effort they require. But this isn't a flaw with capitalism as such. For one thing, public sector wages aren't set by the market, but by what the government is willing to pay. Typically, wages are higher in the private sector. But the amount people are willing to pay to receive a service isn't just a capitalist thing, it's a feature in any system where people receive different wages.

Conservatives aren't afraid to appropriate liberal concepts.

Liberals and conservatives both tend to support capitalism, although not always. It's like how a Tottenham fan and an Arsenal fan are both football fans, but they don't support the same team. When a conservative uses "liberal" pejoratively, they are generally criticising the social aspects of liberalism, like acceptance of immigrants and queer people. Contrastingly, when a leftist uses "liberal" pejoratively they tend to be criticising liberal support for capitalism.


There is no country in the world where people are not starving, except perhaps some very small rich countries. The fact is we live in a world with scarce resources, and as long as we do, then distributing those resources is going to be difficult.

We're not yet living in a capitalist utopia. Most capitalists will happily say that there is still much more work to be done to ensure that everyone has the things they need. We started from a very low baseline, and we have come a long way, but there's still a way to go.

Well then you won't like communism because one of their guiding principles is
"He who does not work, neither shall he eat"

There's a reason the traditional symbols of communism are the hammer and sickle, not the couch and the pillow. The hammer and sickle and the tools of the workers.

According to Vladimir Lenin, "He who does not work shall not eat" is a necessary principle under socialism, the preliminary phase of the evolution towards communist society. The phrase appears in his 1917 work, The State and RevolutionThe State and Revolution. Through this slogan Lenin explains that in socialist states only productive individuals could be allowed access to the articles of consumption.

According to communist ideology, it is the bourgeois landlords and factory owners who wish to work and not eat. That is why they exploit the labour of others. Lenin considered shirking one's work to be a bourgeois concept. Perhaps Lenin took inspiration from 2 Thessalonians 3:10

Mao had different ideas. Under Mao's five year plan it became more like "He that works, still doesn't get to eat anything".

Mao tried to raise money by exporting grain. China has traditionally been in importer of grain because their own farming capacity is insufficient to meet the needs of the population. Mao considered raising money to be more important than looking after his workers (perhaps Mao was a landlord himself).

Here's a selection of propeganda posters
reflecting the thoughts of communist states.

They're all similar in theme.
The food goes to the worker, not the shirker.

That is all fantasy that has been fed to you as propaganda.

Here's a hint. If your money comes from a paycheck, you are not a capitalist. You are a tool of capitalists. As soon as you are unable to earn them a profit, they will discard you, you will find that none of that naïve fantasy you wrote is true, and then you will "get it".

the american dream is called a dream because you gotta be asleep to believe it.

You are talking about early, based, early stage capitalism. Ie. rural people taking their luggage to a community group and selling goods. Even Marx said that early capatalism is neccessary for a society.

What we are dealing with here is late stage capatalism garbage. And in late stage capatalism corporations can and absolute do hoard things, look up copyright hoarding and patent trolling, as well as releasing subpar inefficient ewaste products, and this kind of behavior benefits them because in a democracy the masses don't know better and just consoom. If there is a functional welfare state at this point, its because of the average citizen and socialist type taxation, not because of corporate late stage capatalism.

Because they are the bread and circus of american society lol, without them people wouldn't be wagecuck consoomers of society lol

I don't work in the private sector, so I don't generate a profit. Try again.

"Late stage capitalism" is Marxist nonsense frankly, it has no connection to the real world. At this point Marx has been well and truly proven wrong on this matter. He was predicting the imminent collapse of capitalism 150 years ago, and yet today it's better than ever - far better than the societies created by Marxists.

As I said, we're certainly still not in the "late" stages of capitalism. There is still much more to come from capitalism yet.

Taxation is not socialist.

And yes, IP is different to physical objects. However, that's not an issue with capitalism - anticapitalist countries still have issues with IP hoarding. The issue is with IP law.

Retrogamer has posted the ideal post. I find it strange how so many here support other political systems that have a long history of being highly intolerant of people who can't work.

Life was hard enough for regular people in communist nations, imagine how hard it was for an autistic? A lot of autistics can't work including many here.....they would get ripped to shreds in a typical communist nation.

Let's not forget that capitalists want to get rid of social security especially for the elderly and disabled.

I know they hate socialism so much that they get all frothing mad when it is mentioned, but social security is NOT socialism.

According to some wealthy people I know, Socialism is anything that benefits wage-earners.

According to some wage-earners I know, Capitalism is anything that benefits the wealthy.

Both groups are wrong.