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aspi-rant
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13 Dec 2008, 6:03 pm

Orwell wrote:
aspi-rant wrote:
Enough Religious supremacism. I got bored of it quite a while ago... 40+ years to be more precise. you were probably not even born at that time.

Religious supremacism? Not quite. You are the one going on about "Oh Aspies are just so logical and so much better than NT's, we would never be suckered into believing in anything as foolish as religion, no, that's only for the ignorant pack NT herds." :roll:

Quote:
for my entire life i have heard about religious disputes, wars and what ever. no matter which religion involved.

I don't pick fights with other religions.

Quote:
it has never done anything good to humanity for several thousand years!

Simply false.

Quote:
so... why should i accept that religious people disrespect my choice of being an non-believer?

I don't disrespect you for being an atheist, I disrespect you for being an arrogant jackass. The two don't necessarily go hand-in-hand, though I've noticed they often do.

Quote:
religious aspies are by far a minority in the aspie world.... simply because for most aspies religion makes no sense - is not rational and lacks proof and logic.

You have no basis for this claim. Demographic data on Aspies is far too sparse to make any such claim.


@ reaction to quote 1

Religious supremacism...

@ reaction to quote 2

you pick fight with non-believers intead?

@ reaction to quote 3

examples please?
i can at least give you a few clear examples that my statement is not false at all: the middle ages, missionaries enforcing religion on ancient cultures, 9/11, WWII, the middle east.... and many many others coud be listed here... care to join me making a complete list?

@ reaction to quote 4

Religious supremacism... again... and a lot off humor! :-)

@ reaction to quote 5

you are right... to make your own opinion on this mather i will ask you to read the other (parallel) topics currently active about religion... i saw you were there a few posts and than "gave up" - or maybe had other more important things to do!

i have met IRL and on dutch and danish discussionboards for aspies many "aspie-colleagues"... and i estimate that more than 90% were either atheist or agnostics...

then read this:

School of Divinity with Religious Studies and Philosophy wrote:
Religion and Autism

Despite the prominence of autism spectrum disorders on the agendas of various disciplines within science and the humanities - psychology, education, neurology, religious studies, theology and psychiatry – very little research has been carried out in relation to the significance of religion for people with autism spectrum disorders. The research that has been done has been contradictory with some arguing that the complex and metaphorical nature of religion and religious experience is incompatible with the neurological, cognitive and social difficulties that are central features of autism spectrum disorders and others who argue that religious experience is very much a reality in the lives of people with this condition; a reality that has a good deal of significance for the quality of life of sufferers and their families. To date there has been no in depth, interdisciplinary research that has sought to explore the role of religion in the lives of people with autism spectrum disorders. This project aims to begin to address this knowledge gap by drawing together an interdisciplinary team of experts within the field to explore the central issues that arise in the encounter between autism and religion with a view to increasing knowledge and understanding within a wide range of disciplines (education, psychology, psychiatry, practical theology, disability theology, religious studies, history of religions, neurology). This will be a unique series of meetings which will be designed to produce previously undiscovered insights and knowledge.

The intention is to begin to develop new knowledge through constructive, critical, multidisciplinary dialogue around the key issues of understanding, method and practice. This will be achieved by developing a multidisciplinary network of experts within the above mentioned disciplines, who will meet together for two sets of 3 day research symposia in 2007/08. The first will meet in Aberdeen in December 2007 (15th and 16th) and the second in Cardiff during April 2008. These meetings will be highly focussed research symposia specifically designed to produce a unique, high quality academic text.

This is a closed symposium for invited guests only, but the results will be made available.

source: http://www.abdn.ac.uk/cshad/events/reli ... tism.shtml

more reading containing a dead link and contact information: http://www.cardiff.ac.uk/relig/research ... utism.html



and now start wondering why we haven't heard anything about their findings yet... ;-)



Orwell
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13 Dec 2008, 6:12 pm

aspi-rant wrote:
@ reaction to quote 1

Religious supremacism...

How so?

Quote:
@ reaction to quote 2

you pick fight with non-believers intead?

Only if they start it (which you did).

Quote:
@ reaction to quote 3

examples please?
i can at least give you a few clear examples that my statement is not false at all: the middle ages, missionaries enforcing religion on ancient cultures, 9/11, WWII, the middle east.... and many many others coud be listed here... care to join me making a complete list?

Countless examples of charity work supported by religious institutions, immense number of cultural and intellectual contributions, humanitarian concerns (among the first opponents of slavery were so on religious grounds, as were opponents of torture) and I could go on, but won't. How did WWII have anything to do with religion? Learn your history, please. What about the Middle Ages was both horrible and caused by religion? 9/11 was more about politics than religion. It was a response to US foreign policy, not an attack on a particular religious group.

Quote:
@ reaction to quote 4

Religious supremacism... again... and a lot off humor! :-)

No, actually just an open personal attack. I have no particular issue with atheists as a rule, just with the obnoxious ones.

Quote:
i have met IRL and on dutch and danish discussionboards for aspies many "aspie-colleagues"... and i estimate that more than 90% were either atheist or agnostics...

First, there's the false consensus effect, meaning you probably imagine your own opinions to be more prevalent than they actually are. Second, internet forums tend to attract atheists like moths to a porch light. Atheists are disproportionately represented anywhere you go on the internet.


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Vexcalibur
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13 Dec 2008, 6:22 pm

Fraya wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
DentArthurDent wrote:
I am curious why people believe in the existence of a supreme being.


Because I can. Well,I don't call it a being exactly.

There's no evidence whatsoever against the existence of an ultimate entity. So I'd say everyone is free to believe or not in anything they wish.


So long as those beliefs do not pose a danger to others.

Just thought I should point out that little caveat.
The belief a belief is dangerous is quite dangerous.

I should be able to think whatever I like. You seem to think that I should be banned from thinking in something just because it would be dangerous. That's non-sense. For us to be considered free at all, we should at least have freaking freedom of thought.

Quote:
i can at least give you a few clear examples that my statement is not false at all

You said "religion has not done nothing good", which is not equivalent to "religion has done bad things".

The biggest war so far, and the resulting so called cold war that caused a lot of killings all over the world. Was originated from ideology, ideology from some quite freaking brilliant minds. If you take religion out of the equation, I assure you, people is going to find a new excuse for their wars.


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Last edited by Vexcalibur on 13 Dec 2008, 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Fraya
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13 Dec 2008, 6:30 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
The belief a belief is dangerous is quite dangerous.

I should be able to think whatever I like. You seem to think that I should be banned from thinking in something just because it would be dangerous. That's non-sense. For us to be considered free at all, we should at least have freaking freedom of thought.


/facepalm

My religion says you should not be allowed to live therefore I will kill you and your entire family and you can't complain because you think people should be allowed to believe anything.

If there were nothing wrong with thoughts or beliefs that lead to danger to yourself or others there would be no system in place for involuntary commitment to a mental facility.

Your freedom of thought never existed.


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13 Dec 2008, 6:30 pm

People believe in God for various reasons. I believe for everything that is around could not have come by accident or chance. If you do not believe in something you might accept anything. I cannot convence you to believe in God or not , for that is your choice.


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Vexcalibur
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13 Dec 2008, 6:34 pm

Fraya wrote:
/facepalm

My religion says you should not be allowed to live


And why the heck should I say you are not allowed to think that?

Quote:
therefore I will kill you and your entire family and you can't complain because you think people should be allowed to believe anything.

You being allowed to believe in that( and you are) is unrelated to the fact there are laws against killing me and my family. But you should be allowed to think that. A lot of people think some people deserve to die, a lot of people hate their bosses, for example. I am against a world in which you don't even have control of your own thoughts, and thinking something would be banned. The worst thing is that it is happening already. The governments are trying to ban some thoughts already, of course, right now they are justifying it under the "think of the children" meme. Everybody hates child abusers, so nobody will be against forbidding the thought of liking younglings... But then they are going to climb to battle other 'dangerous' thoughts...


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anna-banana
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13 Dec 2008, 6:46 pm

preludeman wrote:
People believe in God for various reasons. I believe for everything that is around could not have come by accident or chance. If you do not believe in something you might accept anything. I cannot convence you to believe in God or not , for that is your choice.


that's a false opposition.


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Fraya
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13 Dec 2008, 6:54 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
Fraya wrote:
/facepalm

My religion says you should not be allowed to live


And why the heck should I say you are not allowed to think that?


Because religion should not trump the law and it is illegal to incite violence.

Vexcalibur wrote:
I am against a world in which you don't even have control of your own thoughts,


And yet you ascribe to a religion... strange.

Vexcalibur wrote:
and thinking something would be banned.


As I said it's not really the thought that's the problem its the coercive effect of religious belief that is trouble.

Oh and most forms of coercion are illegal.

Actually we agree here that thoughts should not be controlled by others. I'm only positing that religious leaders perhaps should not be allowed to control the thoughts of their followers especially when those beliefs are harmful to others.


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history_of_psychiatry
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13 Dec 2008, 7:01 pm

As a kid I was told there was a tooth fairy. When I got a bit older I realized there wasn't. As a kid I was told santa claus was real. When I got a bit older I realized there wasn't. As a kid I was told there was this big invisible being watching over us whom who must worship. You see where I'm going.


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13 Dec 2008, 8:41 pm

Orwell wrote:
On the cosmological argument? Basically, it's the whole "first cause" deal, why anything exists. It goes back to the ancient Greeks, who postulated the existence of a "prime mover" or "unmoved mover." Something has to have caused the universe to come into existence, and this thing is, under the cosmological argument, assigned the name "God."


The paradox in that situation is: "Who created God?"
The big bang theory explains the creation of the universe, and abiogenesis explains the creation of life. Science doesn't explain everything right now. But that is the nature of science, to find an answer, not make one up.



Vexcalibur
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13 Dec 2008, 9:25 pm

Quote:
And yet you ascribe to a religion... strange

Did I say that?

Quote:
As I said it's not really the thought that's the problem its the coercive effect of religious belief that is trouble.

Oh and most forms of coercion are illegal.

But then again that's irrelevant, I said we are free to believe in whatever we like I never said we were free to coerce or incite violence. I am allowed to hate if I want to, I don't want to, but if I wanted to, I should be allowed to hate him. I should probably not be allowed to send him threatening letters or incite people to kill him...

Quote:
As a kid I was told there was a tooth fairy. When I got a bit older I realized there wasn't. As a kid I was told santa claus was real. When I got a bit older I realized there wasn't. As a kid I was told there was this big invisible being watching over us whom who must worship. You see where I'm going.


Well, there's something you are missing here.

The tooth fairy, my parents pushed that idea so I could stand the pain from losing teeth. It may not have existed but it was useful, and at the end it was very practical. Later I learned that Santa Claus was real, but his reality was deformed into fitting yet another good practical use, so parents can actually know what you want for Christmas without asking directly, not to mention extortion on us...

Yet, although the tool was a false modification meant to control your behavior, it does not make the historical "Santa Claus" less real, someone came and modified the tale to control you, but that doesn't stop the original story from being true.

Regarding this big invisible being watching over us whom we must worship. He does not exist either, but like Santa and the tooth fairy he exists as a tool, what was the objective of the tool? Maybe a cheap way to implant morality on you. Whether it is a myth like the tooth fairy or actually something like it actually exists or existed like Santa Claus, it is your choice.


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ToadOfSteel
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13 Dec 2008, 10:55 pm

aspi-rant wrote:
Enough Religious supremacism. I got bored of it quite a while ago... 40+ years to be more precise. you were probably not even born at that time.

So did I, I'm a practicing christian and I've had southern baptists try to make me "repent"...

Quote:
for my entire life i have heard about religious disputes, wars and what ever. no matter which religion involved.

Image
Athiest.

I'm not trying to make any "holier-than-thou" statements here, but that is my standard response to all the athiests who go on about "athiests don't kill millions of people" line...

Quote:
i'm sick and tired of hearing about religion and this so called "god" stuff. it has never done anything good to humanity for several thousand years!

Are you saying that Mother Teresa didn't do any good to humanity?

Again, I'm not going for the "holier-than-thou" approach. Human beings will be just that: human beings. The whole range of ethically good to evil exists in the entire human species; religions are capable of both good and evil, just as with secular organizations...


Quote:
so... why should i accept that religious people disrespect my choice of being an non-believer? i can't avoid hearing their views because its all over where ever i go, look and listen ... and as soon as i (or other non-believers) express a view on this topic, believers crave respect for the people who believe in this religious nonsens.

You shouldn't accept religious people thinking less of you for not believing. That technically goes against the religion they claim to believe in (unless they're Scientologists...) Even satanism supposedly requires its adherents to not be a prick to other people (unless others start being a prick to them...) I make it a point to not shove my religion down other people's throats. The only exception is when someone attacks my religion, such as what you were just doing.

Quote:
religious aspies are by far a minority in the aspie world.... simply because for most aspies religion makes no sense - is not rational and lacks proof and logic.

Well, as I learned from watching too much Star Trek, logic can't explain everything about the universe. Even the almighty Spock was not invincible; there were times that you needed one such as McCoy to solve the problem...

Quote:
in the nordic regions where i live the vikings once had a nice cosy religion. unfortunately it got silenced and oppressed by the christians. they took the viking holidays and made them theirs... to assure that the viking would convert.

so happy Yule to all of you believers too! lets drink and eat for 12 days... and celebrate the resurection of the sun! :lol:

And the only reason those pagan traditions are kept around is because retail companies make a lot of money off of Christmas sales... Also, most institutions of Christianity today embrace (or at least tolerate) the relocation of Christmas to December because in turn there is increased giving to charitable organizations, both religious and community, during that time of year...



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13 Dec 2008, 11:40 pm

I really hope some of you are not about to sit any exams, because you seem to have little ability comprehension.
The question I posed was to get an understanding of why religious people believe what they do, in other words if you don't believe in God then this post has nothing to do with you, there are plenty of posts dedicated to religious arguments, this was not intended to be one.
If you do not believe in God please let those that do explain their beliefs without the need to defend themselves; you never know you might learn something

I am not trying to undermine anybodies right to believe I just want to try and understand why you believe what you do.

@ Orwell how does the cosmological argument differ from the 'God of the gaps'


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14 Dec 2008, 1:50 am

DentArthurDent wrote:
The question I posed was to get an understanding of why religious people believe what they do, in other words if you don't believe in God then this post has nothing to do with you, there are plenty of posts dedicated to religious arguments, this was not intended to be one.

I briefly touched on that in my last post. Logic cannot explain everything (at least, logic as we humans are capable of comprehending...)



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14 Dec 2008, 2:37 am

ToadOfSteel wrote:
I briefly touched on that in my last post. Logic cannot explain everything (at least, logic as we humans are capable of comprehending...)


Hi Toad, this is exactly what I am chasing. Logic to my mind pretty much deletes God; so what is it that makes you believe; is it a feeling, just something you know to be true, an epiphany even, a personal experience that defies logic?


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14 Dec 2008, 2:50 am

because of scirence and math thats why