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Will Obama fix the economy?
Yes. Yes He Can. 32%  32%  [ 11 ]
Doesn't look that way from where I'm sitting. 68%  68%  [ 23 ]
Total votes : 34

twoshots
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02 Mar 2009, 4:16 pm

And we're in the clear. Dow down 300 points today, better than the S&P 500 by percentage lost. The NYSE Composite worse than either of them. The NYSE Healthcare index continues its sudden collapse (which started *cough* mid last week).

Yep. Good stuff.


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02 Mar 2009, 4:44 pm

Nope, Obama is not going to fix the economy. And, if you think the stimulus bill is aimed at fixing the economy then I have a nice bridge for sale for any takers. Now, will Obama re-shape our economy? Yes. Will it be better? Maybe. For the green special interests groups, yes, for people that live off of the state, yes but for people that work hard and don't want more and more government intervention into their daily lives, nope.

Now, no one should be surprised about the "lack of confidence" in the stock market since the election. Enough people were stating the obviousness of Obama winning the election and getting his way prior to the election. Unfortunately, not many journalists did their job.

You can't point the finger at greedy CEOs and unscrupulous profiteers all the time, especially, when a president wants to overhaul the current economic system in the middle of a "...financial crisis that has not been seen since the likes of the Great Depression". Now, it would make more sense to secure some economic stability, address the real issues that caused the "crisis" (bad loans not bad bridges), and then approach the "re-shaping" in a more systematic way, not try to push everything through, under the secrecy of "closed door" legislation within 100 days. Now, it is not just a "lack of confidence" in the stock market indirectly and directly by Obama's words and actions, but a lack of confidence in the ability and more importantly the direction of this government. Maybe that is why all of this crap must be rammed through Congress in under a 100 days. Confidence!! !



TheMidnightJudge
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03 Mar 2009, 1:08 am

Well there's only so much the president can do. I think he'll have a strong positive impact, but it will be slow. FDR made progress to get out of the depression, but the new deal moved slowly, and as the deficit built up, they decided to stop it. When they did the economy went downhill again.


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TheMidnightJudge
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03 Mar 2009, 1:11 am

Cyanide wrote:
his stimulus package is garbage


How?


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aka010101
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03 Mar 2009, 3:04 am

Alright, i've got a lot to say this time.

First off, everyone who is complaining about obama handing out bailout money to the companies and saying this will ruin everything, i feel compelled to remind you that bush junior started this little trend back when the government bought out those major real estate firms last fall. This has been a trend of the government in general.

Second, i would like to voice my opinion that no one REALLY knows what makes the economy run.
Even economists can really only make educated guesses based on previous patterns.

Third, as has been previously stated, this bill comes from CONGRESS, not the president. However, the last election put the democrats pretty firmly in control of congress, WE VOTED FOR THIS. (and i voted democrat, and make no apology for that)

Fourth, While i agree that throwing money at failing companies might be a bad idea, realize that if we don't , we risk having our entire infrastructure crumble, that would be WORSE than going into debt.

Fifth, this trend started several years ago, this is not obama , or anyone in the current administrations fault, if anything , its the fault of the stupid CEO's who couldn't manage their own compaines.

And, now for a break from the enumerated points to bring you... what the stimulus bill is actually going to , as shown by wikipedia, i was going to post it here, but it took up too much space, and this post is going to be long enough as it is.. so here is your link oh readers of wrongplanet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_R ... ct_of_2009

NEXT: some ideas and suggestions

Personally, i think we should throw as much of our weight behind alternative energy, ESPECIALLY NUCLEAR POWER. While i know a lot of people have a lot of anxiety about neuclear power, allow me to clear a few things up.
1: neuclear reactors actually produce very little radioactive waste. Fuel rods get recycled with a very high percentage of the material going BACK to the reactor.
2: while having radioactive material lying around IS a bad thing, nuclear waste can be FAR more easily contained than emissions from fossil fuels, and personally , i'd rather have a couple hundred tons of U235 stuck under a mountain in nevada somewhere than several THOUSAND times that tonnage of complex hydrocarbons in the atmosphere.
3: Almost all nuclear reactors are actually very stable. Both the 3 mile island, and ESPECIALLY the chernobyl incidents were caused by operator error, not by the reactor. (although cheyrnobl DID use an unstable type of reactor....which is no longer in use now, and was only used by the russians.)
and 4: its sustainable, the united states has most of the worlds supply of easily accessable uranium, which would be more than enough to meet our energy needs for a very long time.

Other forms of alternative energy, like wind and solar power, are also definitely worth pushing for.

If the united states were to push the alternative energy angle, we could not only SERIOUSLY slow the greenhouse gas problem, but we could also get the jump on energy once easily accessable fossil fuels run out. The US could become the core of the new century's equivalent of OPEC if we played our cards right. In addition, we could create a LOT of jobs and seriously stimulate the economy by building all these new power plants, and converting vehicles to run off the new energy sources.


Ok, my fingers hurt from all that typing, i'm done for now.



Haliphron
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03 Mar 2009, 3:21 am

Cyanide wrote:
To all the people that said Obama will fix the economy: you make me laugh :lmao:

As for making the economy recover, Obama so far has not done a thing that will help (his stimulus package is garbage). Not only that, but we're so deep in the muck, that nobody could "fix" this in 4 years.

Our horrible debt-based financial system has given the economy quite a bout of diarrhea that won't pass for quite some time. I know Obama isn't going to fix our financial system, either. So in no sense of the word will our new president "fix" the economy. If he did something to get rid of fractional reserve banking though, THEN I'd have some hope (but everyone knows he won't).


So What do you think should be done then Cyanide? What do you have in mind?

And aka010101: Im behind you 100% on Nuclear Energy! :cheer:
Few people in the US are aware that Nuclear Energy not only can be used to generate electricity but also to desalinate and purify sea water. That what was McCain had been advocating during his presidential campaign and he should join forces with nuclear lobbyists.



Sand
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03 Mar 2009, 3:32 am

aka010101 wrote:
Alright, i've got a lot to say this time.

First off, everyone who is complaining about obama handing out bailout money to the companies and saying this will ruin everything, i feel compelled to remind you that bush junior started this little trend back when the government bought out those major real estate firms last fall. This has been a trend of the government in general.

Second, i would like to voice my opinion that no one REALLY knows what makes the economy run.
Even economists can really only make educated guesses based on previous patterns.

Third, as has been previously stated, this bill comes from CONGRESS, not the president. However, the last election put the democrats pretty firmly in control of congress, WE VOTED FOR THIS. (and i voted democrat, and make no apology for that)

Fourth, While i agree that throwing money at failing companies might be a bad idea, realize that if we don't , we risk having our entire infrastructure crumble, that would be WORSE than going into debt.

Fifth, this trend started several years ago, this is not obama , or anyone in the current administrations fault, if anything , its the fault of the stupid CEO's who couldn't manage their own compaines.

And, now for a break from the enumerated points to bring you... what the stimulus bill is actually going to , as shown by wikipedia, i was going to post it here, but it took up too much space, and this post is going to be long enough as it is.. so here is your link oh readers of wrongplanet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_R ... ct_of_2009

NEXT: some ideas and suggestions

Personally, i think we should throw as much of our weight behind alternative energy, ESPECIALLY NUCLEAR POWER. While i know a lot of people have a lot of anxiety about neuclear power, allow me to clear a few things up.
1: neuclear reactors actually produce very little radioactive waste. Fuel rods get recycled with a very high percentage of the material going BACK to the reactor.
2: while having radioactive material lying around IS a bad thing, nuclear waste can be FAR more easily contained than emissions from fossil fuels, and personally , i'd rather have a couple hundred tons of U235 stuck under a mountain in nevada somewhere than several THOUSAND times that tonnage of complex hydrocarbons in the atmosphere.
3: Almost all nuclear reactors are actually very stable. Both the 3 mile island, and ESPECIALLY the chernobyl incidents were caused by operator error, not by the reactor. (although cheyrnobl DID use an unstable type of reactor....which is no longer in use now, and was only used by the russians.)
and 4: its sustainable, the united states has most of the worlds supply of easily accessable uranium, which would be more than enough to meet our energy needs for a very long time.

Other forms of alternative energy, like wind and solar power, are also definitely worth pushing for.

If the united states were to push the alternative energy angle, we could not only SERIOUSLY slow the greenhouse gas problem, but we could also get the jump on energy once easily accessable fossil fuels run out. The US could become the core of the new century's equivalent of OPEC if we played our cards right. In addition, we could create a LOT of jobs and seriously stimulate the economy by building all these new power plants, and converting vehicles to run off the new energy sources.


Ok, my fingers hurt from all that typing, i'm done for now.



From:
http://www.greenpeace.org/international ... lear-power


05 December 2007
A new report published by a team of international energy and economic experts which conclusively proves that nuclear power is neither a practical nor economically viable solution to tackling climate change.

The report, “The Economics of Nuclear Power”, commissioned by Greenpeace International, concludes that nuclear power station construction can run up to 300% over budget and, on average, take four years longer to build than planned.
The Economics of Nuclear Power examines the reasons behind the huge delays and cost over-runs which are common to nuclear power construction projects, and concerns over safety and reliability of new technology, concluding:

* that in country after country nuclear construction has gone massively over budget;

* that long construction periods are symptomatic of a range of problems including managing the construction of increasingly complex reactor designs, and inherent within the ailing nuclear infrastructure;

* that combined with the huge subsidies required, uncompetitively high prices, poor reliability and serious risks of cost overruns,nuclear power stands no chance of being economically viable in countries that have moved to competitive power procurement;

that significant and widespread concerns remain over the basic safety, waste disposal and decommissioning of existing plants;

* that there are similarly significant concerns over new, untested technology in currently- proposed nuclear power projects.



Haliphron
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03 Mar 2009, 3:45 am

Sand: Are you aware that Nuclear Waste can be USED to generate electricity SO LONG AS its still radioactive???
What needs to be done is for radionuclides to be concentrated into solid pellets that could be used either for nuclear batteries.
Also, I would not be inclined to to trust Greenpeace as an unbiased source of information since they are so rabidly anti-nuclear.



aka010101
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03 Mar 2009, 3:53 am

I'm sorry to disregard your argument like that, but your source pretty much invalidates your argument.

Greenpeace is pretty much a lobby organization, that means, no matter how admirable their goal may be, they have an agenda, and they won't let little things like truth get in the way.
You can't expect accuracy from groups like that, it's like tying to get an accurate report on gun violence from the NRA.
I would like to point out several trends in that argument

Quote:

* that in country after country nuclear construction has gone massively over budget;

* that long construction periods are symptomatic of a range of problems including managing the construction of increasingly complex reactor designs, and inherent within the ailing nuclear infrastructure;

* that combined with the huge subsidies required, uncompetitively high prices, poor reliability and serious risks of cost overruns,nuclear power stands no chance of being economically viable in countries that have moved to competitive power procurement;

that significant and widespread concerns remain over the basic safety, waste disposal and decommissioning of existing plants;

* that there are similarly significant concerns over new, untested technology in currently- proposed nuclear power projects.


does anyone see any specifics in that argument? To me, vague statements like that are a sign of a bad position. I would like now ask a few questions of that.

1: What countries are you talking about? Give me names, show me how far into debt they've gone.
2: How uncompetitive will neuclear power REALLY be once the price of oil spikes again? Its gone down because of the depression (the price falling was, in hindsight , one of the first warning signs of this whole mess.) And second, what 'more competitive' energy sources are you talking about?
and 3: Just what ARE these concerns over safety and waste disposal.

Another point i feel i need to make again is that the alternative, what we are currently USING is far worse than nuclear power could EVER be. Coal and petroleum power has caused untold enviromental damage, both in obtaining it, AND using it for power. Even if one doesn't believe in global warming (which, to me, is like saying the holocaust never happened), it STILL causes huge amounts of smog and acid rain, which also cause untold damage to the enviroment. Then you have things like oil spills, and the fact that fatalities are practically part of the job for coal miners. I honestly think greenpeace is being hypocritical, because instead of promoting a viable alternative, they're simply shooting down an option that can only be an improvement over the current system. So, if anyone has a better option, I'd like to hear it.

Its kind of sad.. I never thought I'd ever be arguing AGAINST the enviromentalists....



Sand
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03 Mar 2009, 4:18 am

Here is a current sample in Finland. I cannot say if it is typical but it is instructive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olkiluoto_ ... ower_Plant

No private insurance company will undertake insurance for a nuclear power plant. That is extremely indicative of its safety.

See http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/03/30/ ... rgnuke.php



Last edited by Sand on 03 Mar 2009, 4:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

aka010101
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03 Mar 2009, 4:23 am

Really? Honestly , the article is very short, and all it really says is the project is late and over budget, and bear in mind, this is a prototype reactor design, in FINLAND, which is not exactly the most developed country, granted, its also hardly third world, but i can gaurentee you the problems would be less in someplace like France or Germany.
Anyway, lateness and cost issues are a problem with a LOT of projects this size. I mean, look at all the trouble they've had with the large hadron collider. I'm gonna have to chalk this one up to plain old incompetecne, rather than on the project itself.



Sand
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03 Mar 2009, 4:30 am

Here is another detailed article on the Finnish plant with comments on nuclear power in general.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/09/05/ ... bxnuke.php



Sand
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03 Mar 2009, 4:32 am

aka010101 wrote:
Really? Honestly , the article is very short, and all it really says is the project is late and over budget, and bear in mind, this is a prototype reactor design, in FINLAND, which is not exactly the most developed country, granted, its also hardly third world, but i can gaurentee you the problems would be less in someplace like France or Germany.
Anyway, lateness and cost issues are a problem with a LOT of projects this size. I mean, look at all the trouble they've had with the large hadron collider. I'm gonna have to chalk this one up to plain old incompetecne, rather than on the project itself.


Your comment on the technical capability and general competence in Finland is highly indicative of your pretty total ignorance of the country.



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03 Mar 2009, 4:39 am

I concede the point in that regard, i really don't know squat about finland, my apologies if i gave any offence.



Sand
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03 Mar 2009, 4:43 am

aka010101 wrote:
I concede the point in that regard, i really don't know squat about finland, my apologies if i gave any offence.


It's a great place, home of Nokia, the world's big cell phone supplier. Come and visit.



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03 Mar 2009, 4:44 am

Ok, we wandered off topic too long, back to the US economy....