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Morality without God: the realm of Arbitrariness

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iamnotaparakeet
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05 Mar 2009, 9:22 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Events are always at separate points in time, but physical relationships between matter time and space are still present. I'm not sure what you mean. In the case of firing a gun, you have an event happening (or quite a few events if you consider what is chemically happening to the gunpowder), on the macro scale, of conservation of momentum, where the mass times velocity of the projectile equals the mass times velocity of the gun (i.e. recoil). How is the human act of referring to the firing of the gun a method of causing a physical relationship to be non-existent?

In an equation world, the time is an input, and the event would be the output. That's the problem. There is something dynamic, and equations are not dynamic but rather just there.


Time isn't an input as far as I know, it's a dimension that we travel through, and in it 1 second of time that we would observe is 2.998*10^8 meters approximately.

Feynman's Lectures, book I, section 17-3 wrote:
Now in Equations 17.1 and 17.3, nature is telling us that time and space are equivalent; time becomes space; they should be measured in the same units. What distance is a "second"? It is easy to figure out from 17.3 what it is. It is 3x10^8 meters, the distance that light would go in one second.


Equations wrote:
17.1
x' = (x - vt)/((1-(v^2/c^2))^0.5)
y' = y
z' =z
t' = (t - (vx/c^2))/((1-(v^2/c^2))^0.5)

17.3
c^2*t^2 - x'^2 - y'^2 - z'^2 = c^2*t^2 - x^2 -y^2 -z^2


Time is a dimension where the events happen in, where we cover distance in at light's speed.
An event occurs within time, but isn't the output of time. For events to take place, they require energy. The input has to equal the output, otherwise your math is wrong. Total energy in equals total energy out. There are stored, or potential, forms of energy, and there is energy in use, or kinetic, forms of energy. Total energy is the sum of its parts, the potential and kinetic, so TE = KE + PE, and TE1 = TE2 which is PE1 + KE1 = PE2 + KE2. If there is energy taken away from a system due to friction or drag or induction or capacitance or whatever, it is not lost, but transferred to other areas, wantingly or unwantingly.

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Ok.... but given the varying codes of moral behavior throughout history and between Christian theologians, either God didn't give a very good way to know this, or there are a lot of very dishonest experts.


Dishonesty, Antisemitism, desire for power, unwillingness to change, being seated in traditions, and other various reasons come into play in my opinion.

Sometimes misunderstandings come from lack of background research from historical periods, cultural differences in areas and times compared to the reader, unacquaintance with customs, or even poor understanding of original, or even ones own, languages. However, even when those misunderstandings are cleared, other motives for non acceptance appear.



Henriksson
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06 Mar 2009, 2:28 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
The moral "rules" we have developed are perfectly explainable given human history and our ability to come up with new philosophical ideas; some of which have WORKED. Thats what happened when the authors of the bible wrote it! They thought these things up(which REALLY arent that hard to do)and claimed that this mythical being named God inspired them. :wink:


Prove it, without begging the question.

On my side I present the Levitical laws of cleanliness, dietary restrictions, and circumcision, as well as fulfilled prophecies concerning Tyre and Christ.

The burden of proof is on you. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Levitical laws? How is that proof for anything? :?:

Also, "prophecies"? They're obvious fakes! :roll:


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06 Mar 2009, 2:34 am

Henriksson wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
The moral "rules" we have developed are perfectly explainable given human history and our ability to come up with new philosophical ideas; some of which have WORKED. Thats what happened when the authors of the bible wrote it! They thought these things up(which REALLY arent that hard to do)and claimed that this mythical being named God inspired them. :wink:


Prove it, without begging the question.

On my side I present the Levitical laws of cleanliness, dietary restrictions, and circumcision, as well as fulfilled prophecies concerning Tyre and Christ.

The burden of proof is on you. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Levitical laws? How is that proof for anything? :?:

Also, "prophecies"? They're obvious fakes! :roll:



Henriksson's gotta good point there iamnotaparakeet! :mrgreen:
You made the claim so YOU bear the burden of proof. Ever heard of something called Occams razor BTW?
It says that the simplest explanation that fits the date is the BEST. Historical evidence shows that the bible was written by HUMANS who claim God was dicating the words to them. The possibility that they came to these ideas by ratiocination and then made up the fairytale that some supernatural being spoke to them has NOT been completely ruled out here.



iamnotaparakeet
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06 Mar 2009, 2:46 am

Henriksson wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
The moral "rules" we have developed are perfectly explainable given human history and our ability to come up with new philosophical ideas; some of which have WORKED. Thats what happened when the authors of the bible wrote it! They thought these things up(which REALLY arent that hard to do)and claimed that this mythical being named God inspired them. :wink:


Prove it, without begging the question.

On my side I present the Levitical laws of cleanliness, dietary restrictions, and circumcision, as well as fulfilled prophecies concerning Tyre and Christ.

The burden of proof is on you. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Levitical laws? How is that proof for anything? :?:

Also, "prophecies"? They're obvious fakes! :roll:


Circumcision on the 8th day, correlated with levels of vitamin K and prothrobin for blood clotting at that time, plus that circumcision of men is healthier for women. http://www.apologia.com/circumcision.html

Prophecy of Tyre, an obvious fake as you claim it to be, right? : http://www.windmillministries.org/frames/CH24-5A.htm



iamnotaparakeet
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06 Mar 2009, 3:17 am

Haliphron wrote:
the simplest explanation that fits the date is the BEST.


When baking soda and vinegar mix, they get all bubbly....


OR

CH3COOH (aq) + NaHCO3 (s) --> NaCH3COO (aq) + CO2 (g) + H2O (l)



iamnotaparakeet
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06 Mar 2009, 3:26 am

A good mention of Occam's razor at time 2:35 :

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSzyO86Npj0[/youtube]



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06 Mar 2009, 4:06 am

Interesting how different the movie was from Sagan's original book.



iamnotaparakeet
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06 Mar 2009, 4:11 am

sojournertruth wrote:
Interesting how different the movie was from Sagan's original book.


I haven't read the book, but only seen the movie. In the movie, it seemed that if infinity could be enumerated, that the phrase "if there's nothing up there, then it's a horrible waste of space" was used fairly close to that amount. In what ways is it different though?



Henriksson
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06 Mar 2009, 8:33 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Henriksson wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
The moral "rules" we have developed are perfectly explainable given human history and our ability to come up with new philosophical ideas; some of which have WORKED. Thats what happened when the authors of the bible wrote it! They thought these things up(which REALLY arent that hard to do)and claimed that this mythical being named God inspired them. :wink:


Prove it, without begging the question.

On my side I present the Levitical laws of cleanliness, dietary restrictions, and circumcision, as well as fulfilled prophecies concerning Tyre and Christ.

The burden of proof is on you. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Levitical laws? How is that proof for anything? :?:

Also, "prophecies"? They're obvious fakes! :roll:


Circumcision on the 8th day, correlated with levels of vitamin K and prothrobin for blood clotting at that time, plus that circumcision of men is healthier for women. http://www.apologia.com/circumcision.html

Prophecy of Tyre, an obvious fake as you claim it to be, right? : http://www.windmillministries.org/frames/CH24-5A.htm

Citing an apologist site isn't very... unbiased is it? To quote from the site: "Of course, for those who believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, none of this should be surprising!" Oh, that's very unbiased is it? Circumsision is a tool to make infants' means to reproduce later in life worser, and since religion and politics was intertwined in those days, religion was used to enforce that. And it still goes in today.

As for prophesies... the destruction of Tyre isn't THAT miraculous is it. Tell me how it requires a diety, especially considering that it was something that humans could consciously do.


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06 Mar 2009, 9:39 am

Henriksson wrote:
...Circumsision is a tool to make infants' means to reproduce later in life worser, and since religion and politics was intertwined in those days, religion was used to enforce that. And it still goes in today...

Explain please... I think somthing got missed in translation.

These days, when we have relatively decent hygene capabilities, having a foreskin isn't really that mig of a deal.

But in nonhygenic areas/eras there is a decided advantage to not be inserting potentially infectious smegma into your women.

That the priests/medicine-men of the era made some sort of religious symbol/edict out of a purely hygenic act was just par for the course.

I mean, com on. Think of it from a neolithic's point of view:

You want me to cut off WHAT? Because you say it might make my woman sick?

vs:

"God" (via Priests) Commands, I obey or I get Shunned and starve....Hmmmm....


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06 Mar 2009, 10:48 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Time isn't an input as far as I know, it's a dimension that we travel through, and in it 1 second of time that we would observe is 2.998*10^8 meters approximately.

It's a variable that has a value. Thus, input. An equation by itself does not have change. Now, I suppose you could argue that the universe is just a self-referential equation, one without constants, but this does not seem borne out in observations of the workings of the universe, as it seems to work in a relatively constant manner.

Quote:
Dishonesty, Antisemitism, desire for power, unwillingness to change, being seated in traditions, and other various reasons come into play in my opinion.

Sometimes misunderstandings come from lack of background research from historical periods, cultural differences in areas and times compared to the reader, unacquaintance with customs, or even poor understanding of original, or even ones own, languages. However, even when those misunderstandings are cleared, other motives for non acceptance appear.


Hmm.... you mean that you know yourself to be honest, perfectly Jew-loving, not desiring power, willing to change, no being seated in opinions at all, etc? Pretty impressive claim.



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06 Mar 2009, 11:18 am

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Hmm.... you mean that you know yourself to be honest, perfectly Jew-loving, not desiring power, willing to change, no being seated in opinions at all, etc? Pretty impressive claim.


No, I don't claim to be perfect. Haven't always been honest, yes I love the Jews as God's chosen people in general (even before I heard of Messianic Judaism and years before I met Ziphorah), I don't really care about power or authority though I hate people who misuse theirs, not willing to change on every issue but will if presented evidence, yes I have opinions. That is not my claim to be perfect. I'm just me.



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06 Mar 2009, 11:24 am

Henriksson wrote:
As for prophesies... the destruction of Tyre isn't THAT miraculous is it. Tell me how it requires a diety, especially considering that it was something that humans could consciously do.


It being done by human agents doesn't detract from the events and specificity in the passage, nor that it was recorded prior to the events, nor is there any reason for Nebuchadnezzar, Alexander, or any of the Muslims to carry out the words of one man in captivity for the sake of validation.



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06 Mar 2009, 11:38 am

If A=B
and B=C
than A=C

If sin is what God says is evil
And God does not exist
Than nothing is evil

Point and case...

However, there is Dilemma

Does God say things are good because they are good
or are things good because God say they are good?



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06 Mar 2009, 11:50 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Hmm.... you mean that you know yourself to be honest, perfectly Jew-loving, not desiring power, willing to change, no being seated in opinions at all, etc? Pretty impressive claim.


No, I don't claim to be perfect. Haven't always been honest, yes I love the Jews as God's chosen people in general (even before I heard of Messianic Judaism and years before I met Ziphorah), I don't really care about power or authority though I hate people who misuse theirs, not willing to change on every issue but will if presented evidence, yes I have opinions. That is not my claim to be perfect. I'm just me.

But that is part of the issue, you are arguing that human imperfection leads to problems, but nobody is perfect, so the notion of the absolute standard, even if true, means very little if few people will seem to legitimately know what it is.



iamnotaparakeet
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06 Mar 2009, 12:00 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Hmm.... you mean that you know yourself to be honest, perfectly Jew-loving, not desiring power, willing to change, no being seated in opinions at all, etc? Pretty impressive claim.


No, I don't claim to be perfect. Haven't always been honest, yes I love the Jews as God's chosen people in general (even before I heard of Messianic Judaism and years before I met Ziphorah), I don't really care about power or authority though I hate people who misuse theirs, not willing to change on every issue but will if presented evidence, yes I have opinions. That is not my claim to be perfect. I'm just me.

But that is part of the issue, you are arguing that human imperfection leads to problems, but nobody is perfect, so the notion of the absolute standard, even if true, means very little if few people will seem to legitimately know what it is.


It is possible for people to know any standard and not follow it.