atheism vs agnosicism

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fnord wrote:

I don't follow you from thread to thread. You won't allow me to dictate what you post and submit to my will? What are you talking about? You give me too much credit I think.

I'm fascinated that you think I would be jealous of you and Claire though. That is so...

ret*d.

I meant in the context of not knowing if they believe in something or not, I didn't mean whether one can claim they have absolute knowledge whether this is true or not. I mean can anyone explain how it's possible to not believing and not not believing at the same time.

I'll give it a shot...


Before I look in the box, I do not believe that the cat is alive, while simultaneously I do not not believe that the cat is alive - I simply do not know what to believe.

... no, that's not quite right ... someone else want to have a go?

My approach to agnosticism is the unbelief of fundamental religion but still open minded to anything that is "untangible" or for the record the personal meaning of god to each person.

I sort of go with the antimilitant aspect of atheism even though I tend not to believe in this notion of god in the way religions describe "him". This is where religion and me contradict as there is no physical evidence of any of these stories written in text.

Last edited by MissConstrue on 26 Mar 2009, 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I'm not sure either label applies to me. I feel certain that the God spoken of in the bible is just a fiction concocted by men to understand the universe prior to the birth of science. In that sense I'm atheist.

However, I sense that there may be "something" that could loosely be described as God - but this is not "God" in any biblical sense, more an emergent property of the universe that has no separate existence as such. That reads like nonsense. I can't find appropriate words. Anyway - this is not a belief, merely a "feeling" so could be complete bullsh*t. I don't trust beliefs; by their very nature they are irrational and simply pot luck if they match reality or not.

I'm also a spiritual person and have spent my life pondering the mystery of life the universe and existence. But rather than accept the dogma of organised religions I'm looking for myself, discarding what is illogical or based only on belief but without substance. To me the "truth" is more important than any cosy belief system that promises eternal life or a heaven.

Gross mistake on this post. I have removed it. Sorry.

Last edited by Sand on 26 Mar 2009, 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

^ YOU started this thread?! !

The OP was posted by "solinoure," so either you are mistaken, or "solinoure" is your sock-puppet.

DAMN! My apologies. You are perfectly right. Old age has its penalties. I thought I was in the thread " Pimping God" Sorry. It's sometimes difficult not to be a damned fool.

No worries, mate! I'm sure that we've all been there too ... although I can't remember the last time I was.

Well, if you had asked me if I am agnostic toward the existence or physical make up of dark matter, or the existence of my own soul, then I might have been intrigued; but I happen to find your questions inane so I will skip them.What is bad for one can be good for another. It is my most favorite thing about subjectivity. I guess I can presume you have the correct answer. I happen to be of the opinion, claims of knowing the answer of God smack of arrogance. However, I see you are young and, for some reason, I have an affinity for youthful arrogance so I guess it really does not bother me.Now there is an interesting term. I do not believe it would be the right term for me when considering the existence of God. If God does exist, I think I might find that to be personally relevant. However, in overall general terms, it might possibly be the perfect term for me; but my own self-psychoanalysis is something I usually like to do alone. So, you will have to excuse me while I close the door.

Think of it in the form of a multiple choice question.

Please select the option which best describes you.
A. I believe God exists.
B. I believe God does not exist.
C. None of the above.

The Fnordic version:

Please select the option which best describes you.

A. I believe that God exists.
B. I believe that God does not exist.
C. All of the above.
D. None of the above.

Take mystery location X.
Take the premise "it is now raining at mystery location X ".

Do you believe the premise is true, or do you believe the premise is untrue, or do you have no belief as to the truth value of the premise? Personally, I neither believe it is raining nor believe it is not raining at mystery location X. I believe I do not know or have any belief about whether or not it is currently raining at mystery location X.

There are many things I do not currently have beliefs about. To me, I never considered there might be a deity until someone else introduced the idea to me; it's just not something that I ever imagined independently of others. I find it unlikely that any deities exist, and believe it is unlikely.

"X is unlikely" is a very different premise to "X does not exist". I believe that deities are very unlikely, but that is not the same as believing absolutely that they do not exist.

I find the need to interpret atheism and agnosticism as mutually exclusive is not dissimilar to the need some religionists and some non-religionists have to distinguish between each other and prove their own version or reality is the only true correct one. It's as though some people have a very strong desire to "mark out" their "spiritual/religious "territory", exclude anyone whose beliefs are not identical, and then prove to themselves that only their beliefs (and those identical to them) are reasonable and sensible. I find it difficult to distinguish between this behavior and the usual argy-bargy "I'm right everyone else is wrong" shlick that is associated with beliefs about religion and spirituality.

As Switzerland is considered to be the home of the "Nice Germans",
Agnostics can be referred to as the "Nice Atheists".

Perhaps we need to consult Heinlein's theories on axis swapping with six dimensions? *cough* Ok, back on topic and enough of the tomfoolery on my behalf... While I don't wish to delve into some of the semantic differences in -isms, -ists, and -ics (oh my!)... I do agree that atheism and agnosticism are two very different things. At best, one might consider me an agnostic veering toward an Adiest sense of spirituality mixed with Taoist philosophy.


M.