The no-money nation

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07 Nov 2010, 7:36 am

It's impossible to prove a negative so I'm not going to completely discount your vision, just say that it needs work if you're going to make it work.

The biggest obstacle is actually making sure people don't use money. People take for granted that the government makes money. People forget that historically money predated government coining of money. If the government does not have official money people will start treating valueable but rare and "hard to reproduce" objects like gold or diamonds as money instead.

It's not impossible that people's values and habits could change in generations to where they'd stop using money, but you can't just abolish this habit by fiat.

You should read some Marx. People often dismiss Marx as utopian, but actually Marx saw the immediately achievement of things like abolishing money or even completely equal pay as impossible. Instead Marx believed that the "socialist" stage in history would start a social process that would proceed into communism. A common argument against Marxism is that "if everyone is paid the same people won't have an incentive to work." But at first Marx envisions workers being paid according to the amount of work they do rather than just based on need. I think a lot of people also read "need" and think Marx wants to limit everyone to their bare necessities. But Marx says in Capital(I forget the exact passage) that he's referring to all human needs, not just things like food and shelter but also entertainment and happiness.

People also mistake Marx and Lenin. If you read them both you'll see how Lenin distorted Marx. Lenin's writings express a paranoia against anyone who he disagrees with, singling out all his detractors as "counterrevolutionaries" and "opportunists". Marx pointed to the Paris Commune, a highly democratic structure as "socialism". Lenin used "adapting the needs" of Russian society to Marxism as a reason to create a one party dictatorship.

thedaywalker
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07 Nov 2010, 8:05 am

it seems pretty damn good.

Asp-Z
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07 Nov 2010, 8:21 am

eipsa2 wrote:

Since it seems that money really is the root of all evil I propose a state with no money.

How will it work? Short outline below (this is brief!):

1) People work in companies (that have no shareholders), they make no salary. They work because it's fun and they need something to do, social life, excitement, sort of for the same reasons some rich people in capitalist societies work for charities. Because employees work for free, companies will do their utmost to provide optimal working conditions because otherwise people just quit and then they have no work-force/skills.

2) Crappy jobs that no-one wants are taken care of everyone who have to spend x years (e.g. 2 years) working those jobs. Sort of like a draft, but instead of being soldiers, they just do the crappy jobs. Everyone has to do this, usually it will be students. (same like in capitalist societies, the crap jobs are often taken care of by students)

3) Food and goods are available in shops, but everything is free. It's based on the assumption that no-one really wants to eat caviar all day long (you do get tired of that too), and also no-one really wants to have 15 flatscreen tvs in their house. If society has a shortage of some things then those things are rationed (i.e. you have to wait x days/months before you can get one), same like in capitalist society where you would normally save up money for x days/months in order to be able to buy something that is scarese (and therefore expensive).

4) Anyone can start a 'company' and appoint a board of directors. You apply to local government for means (buildings, goods, raw-materials etc). If there are just too many of that type of company you want to make then the means to build it are denied. People will start companies because it's exciting and they want the power/prestige etc. (same like in capitalist societies).

5) All government functions are completely de-centralized, down to the per-street level. There is no president or prime-minister.

6) Government can trade with foreign nations using money (they can swap goods for foreign money, and buy goods in other foreign nations with that money).

What do you think? utopia?

How would I go about acquiring a Rolls-Royce in this system?

BTW, the original quote from the Bible is "The love of money is the root of all evil". You have made the common mistake of misquoting it.

thedaywalker
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07 Nov 2010, 8:28 am

it doesnt matter if you get a rolce royce and qoutes from the bible a bogus anyway.

Vexcalibur
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07 Nov 2010, 9:09 am

Quote:

Since it seems that money really is the root of all evil I propose a state with no money.

Already done, check out US' deficit numbers.

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07 Nov 2010, 9:58 am

Sand wrote:

You seem to suggest that the government which theoretically, at least, functions at the will of the people is inferior to the huge monopolies or very large corporations in its motivations to work for the benefit of the citizens. And, it seems, that you favor the large corporations like the arms manufacturers, like Blackwater, like the large petroleum corporations, like Halliburton and Bechtel, like Microsoft to have total control and dispense altogether with the democratic process.

Computers and blast furnaces were invented by private parties and individuals. Social security was invented by the government. In the U.S. our government is run by people who could not operate a lemonade stand or cut grass at a profit.

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07 Nov 2010, 10:12 am

ruveyn wrote:

Sand wrote:

Actually the people now in Congress would probably fit better at mowing lawns and selling lemonade than they do at representing the needs of the population.

ruveyn
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07 Nov 2010, 10:22 am

Sand wrote:

Actually the people now in Congress would probably fit better at mowing lawns and selling lemonade than they do at representing the needs of the population.

Then we should send them (as voters) back to something they can do well without harming their fellow citizens.

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07 Nov 2010, 11:07 am

thedaywalker wrote:

it doesnt matter if you get a rolce royce

Of course it does. If I don't get a Rolls-Royce before I die I shall consider myself a failure.

Quote:

and qoutes from the bible a bogus anyway.

Yes, but the whole OP was based on a Bible quote which was incorrect, so it must be double bogus by your logic.

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07 Nov 2010, 12:07 pm

eipsa2 wrote:

Since it seems that money really is the root of all evil I propose a state with no money.

No money means all trade is pure barter. The combinatorics of trade is such that barter (without money) will not support an economy more advanced than one that produces dried fish and lives on roots and berries.

Once people started living in villages and cities, money was invented to deal with the combinatorics of trade. In a society that has thousands of goods and services that people are willing to work to get pure barter became otally unworkable.

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07 Nov 2010, 10:43 pm

ruveyn wrote:

eipsa2 wrote:

Since it seems that money really is the root of all evil I propose a state with no money.

No money down or up, topic

The barter system can work in micro situations and was once the way most people did business, but in complex modern times it is just not feasible.

Am I getting another glimpse of the planet Venus? :roll:

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ruveyn
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08 Nov 2010, 7:39 am

sartresue wrote:

The barter system can work in micro situations and was once the way most people did business, but in complex modern times it is just not feasible.

:

exactly my point.

ruveyn

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08 Nov 2010, 8:19 am

sartresue wrote:

[Am I getting another glimpse of the planet Venus? :roll:

I got that same impression. This vision and that vision share the same fundamental flaw of being feasable only if people stop acting like humans.

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08 Nov 2010, 11:01 am

On paper it looks like a good idea, and it could work in small villages (non farming communities don't have money and they're just fine). But on a national scale I doubt it would ever work out.
For example Communism was a good idea on paper but from what little I know about history I'm guessing it has been a disaster.

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08 Nov 2010, 1:31 pm

eipsa2 wrote:

What do you think? utopia?

I think x=40. 40 years of slavery for a few years of rushing to try to take goods in which there is a shortage sounds more like dystopia than utopia to me.

Still, we do have a variation of this system today. As a child, you don't pay for most things; they are given to you or denied to you by your parents. Then when you become an adult, you have to work at a job that no one would ever work at for free.

So, we may not be too far off from what you think you want.

ruveyn
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08 Nov 2010, 4:00 pm

MONKEY wrote:

Communism only sounds good. In reality one gets the gulags and the secret police. One has unco-operative individuals disappear.

ruveyn

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