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Confused-Fish
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18 May 2009, 6:47 pm

claire333 wrote:
codarac wrote:
I sometimes wonder what American Indians make of the fact that whites took the land they once occupied only to give it away to just about every other race on earth.
I wonder why it would matter at this point in time. The fact is there is not a single American Indian alive today who ever had land taken from them. The attitude that whites still owe them anything for the past only fuels racism in my opinion.


From what ive heard in the past 20 years there have been alot of cases of big corporations taking what was previously generally accepted as being native land, these incidents seem to be normally "justified" by the fact that the native groups in question and their territory pre-date the introduction of deeds to America. There has even been a few instances that ended in armed conflict aswell.

And outside of the USA in places like Brazil and Mexico situations concerning Amerindian peoples are alot worse.



protest_the_hero
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18 May 2009, 7:11 pm

claire333 wrote:
The fact is there is not a single American Indian alive today who ever had land taken from them.
You have no idea how false that is do you? In Canada and the USA, they keep building all sorts of things on native land, and relocating the people to smaller and crappier reserves. Personally, I'd say it's about time they integrate. White people don't exactly live like our answers, do we? No, unless you're Amish.



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18 May 2009, 7:26 pm

protest_the_hero wrote:
claire333 wrote:
The fact is there is not a single American Indian alive today who ever had land taken from them.
You have no idea how false that is do you? In Canada and the USA, they keep building all sorts of things on native land, and relocating the people to smaller and crappier reserves.

I'm gonna need you to go ahead and cite that.


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claire-333
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18 May 2009, 7:47 pm

codarac wrote:
I'm not suggesting they do. I'm suggesting that if naive white Americans are so keen to give away the country their ancestors and fellow whites built, it would be morally preferable to give it away to American Indians than to Pakistanis, Chinese, Hmongs, Somalians etc.
Oh, I misunderstood. I did not realize Americans were keen on the idea of giving our country away so it did not even occur to me.



twoshots
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18 May 2009, 7:53 pm

codarac wrote:
claire333 wrote:
codarac wrote:
I sometimes wonder what American Indians make of the fact that whites took the land they once occupied only to give it away to just about every other race on earth.
I wonder why it would matter at this point in time. The fact is there is not a single American Indian alive today who ever had land taken from them. The attitude that whites still owe them anything for the past only fuels racism in my opinion.


I'm not suggesting they do. I'm suggesting that if naive white Americans are so keen to give away the country their ancestors and fellow whites built, it would be morally preferable to give it away to American Indians than to Pakistanis, Chinese, Hmongs, Somalians etc.

Why is that?


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claire-333
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18 May 2009, 8:00 pm

Confused-Fish wrote:
From what ive heard in the past 20 years there have been alot of cases of big corporations taking what was previously generally accepted as being native land, these incidents seem to be normally "justified" by the fact that the native groups in question and their territory pre-date the introduction of deeds to America. There has even been a few instances that ended in armed conflict aswell.
It was my understanding the federal government owns reservation land.



ruveyn
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19 May 2009, 1:57 am

Confused-Fish wrote:

From what ive heard in the past 20 years there have been alot of cases of big corporations taking what was previously generally accepted as being native land, these incidents seem to be normally "justified" by the fact that the native groups in question and their territory pre-date the introduction of deeds to America. There has even been a few instances that ended in armed conflict aswell.

And outside of the USA in places like Brazil and Mexico situations concerning Amerindian peoples are alot worse.


In recent years there have been several blatant misuses made of the power of Eminent Domain. The government, under the U.S., constitution can take land and water for public use (with compensation to the owners). However this power has been used to transfer land and water resources from one private party to another. This perversion of eminent domain is land theft simpliciter, but the courts are upholding this to put land in the hands of corporations who will provide greater tax revenues to the city, county or state that is effecting the transfer.

ruveyn



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19 May 2009, 2:15 am

ruveyn wrote:
Confused-Fish wrote:

From what ive heard in the past 20 years there have been alot of cases of big corporations taking what was previously generally accepted as being native land, these incidents seem to be normally "justified" by the fact that the native groups in question and their territory pre-date the introduction of deeds to America. There has even been a few instances that ended in armed conflict aswell.

And outside of the USA in places like Brazil and Mexico situations concerning Amerindian peoples are alot worse.


In recent years there have been several blatant misuses made of the power of Eminent Domain. The government, under the U.S., constitution can take land and water for public use (with compensation to the owners). However this power has been used to transfer land and water resources from one private party to another. This perversion of eminent domain is land theft simpliciter, but the courts are upholding this to put land in the hands of corporations who will provide greater tax revenues to the city, county or state that is effecting the transfer.

ruveyn


You might say that there has been a shift in legal perceptions wherein those powers relegated to the invading culture were originally reserved for whites or Spanish conquerors but the shift in perception has now reserved the rights to the wealthier classes and disposed those less endowed to the status of the original inhabitants. The predatory instincts are the same. It is merely a shift of concept of who the approved victims should be.



monty
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19 May 2009, 10:17 am

claire333 wrote:
It was my understanding the federal government owns reservation land.


No, they 'administer' it. It is owned by the tribes.


codarac wrote:
The fact is there is not a single American Indian alive today who ever had land taken from them. The attitude that whites still owe them anything for the past only fuels racism in my opinion.


Actually, that is not true. A federal bureaucracy (the BLM) controls Indian lands, and it has stolen/given away land, water, timber, minerals, and grazing leases ... it is unable to account for its actions, and it has paid the tribes only a small fraction of what it took in. If that happened to your family or a company you invested in, you would call it theft.

On most reservations, the residents are treated like wards, and are unable to cut down or plant a tree or dig a pit privy without approval from the federal government.



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19 May 2009, 1:26 pm

codarac wrote:
monty wrote:
Of course, describing a community as primarily African American (or Italian, or Chinese) is merely descriptive. The over-sensitivity that you refer to was created by, and is secondary to real racism and the genuine scars that people have when they aren't hired because of skin color, can't rent in a neighborhood they like, and are continually treated in a degrading manner by the laws and the majority races.


Why do you insinuate that all ‘racism’ flows from the majority races? Do you actually believe this, or is this just self-serving propaganda?
And maybe you haven’t noticed, but the only government sponsored racial discrimination in Western nations now is against the majority populations

AnonymousAnonymous wrote:
I am a mixed-race Aspie and proud to be mixed-race!

Racism is one of the pure evils of this world
along with sexism and homophobia!

I do agree with the previous poster.
Forms of racial discrimination now
are usually based on ethinicity rather than skin tone.

Portland is 75% white. Is that a problem?
In opinion, hell yes! :evil:

For all non-white Aspies and NTs, come to Portland.
It is a beautiful city. You will love it.


‘A problem’ for whom? For yourself rather than ‘for humanity’, I presume?
If so, that would be understandable. Since you are not white, it is understandable you might find Portland too white for your liking.
I take it, then, you would understand if a white person said they found Detroit or New Orleans too black for their liking? If not, why not?


Yes, that's what I meant. Racism is a problem for humanity.


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codarac
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19 May 2009, 3:49 pm

monty wrote:
codarac wrote:
The fact is there is not a single American Indian alive today who ever had land taken from them. The attitude that whites still owe them anything for the past only fuels racism in my opinion.


Actually, that is not true. A federal bureaucracy (the BLM) controls Indian lands, and it has stolen/given away land, water, timber, minerals, and grazing leases ... it is unable to account for its actions, and it has paid the tribes only a small fraction of what it took in. If that happened to your family or a company you invested in, you would call it theft.

On most reservations, the residents are treated like wards, and are unable to cut down or plant a tree or dig a pit privy without approval from the federal government.


You've attributed to me something that was actually said by claire333.
Sort your brackets out! :mrgreen:



codarac
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19 May 2009, 3:53 pm

AnonymousAnonymous wrote:
codarac wrote:

AnonymousAnonymous wrote:
I am a mixed-race Aspie and proud to be mixed-race!

Racism is one of the pure evils of this world
along with sexism and homophobia!

I do agree with the previous poster.
Forms of racial discrimination now
are usually based on ethinicity rather than skin tone.

Portland is 75% white. Is that a problem?
In opinion, hell yes! :evil:

For all non-white Aspies and NTs, come to Portland.
It is a beautiful city. You will love it.


‘A problem’ for whom? For yourself rather than ‘for humanity’, I presume?
If so, that would be understandable. Since you are not white, it is understandable you might find Portland too white for your liking.
I take it, then, you would understand if a white person said they found Detroit or New Orleans too black for their liking? If not, why not?


Yes, that's what I meant. Racism is a problem for humanity.


I was actually asking 'for whom is the fact that Portland is 75% white a problem?'



claire-333
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19 May 2009, 5:26 pm

monty wrote:
No, they 'administer' it. It is owned by the tribes.
So, they can sell it and move somewhere better where they are not treated like wards? No, it is governed (to some extent) by the tribes and owned by the federal government. I do not even understood the concept of reservations in modern times. There is nothing but stories about how bad they have been from their conception.



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19 May 2009, 9:18 pm

hmm...interestin' stuff. I was raised (60s 70s 80s) to affirm that racism is what White Americans do to anyone who isn't white American. That racism exists only in the US. If you profit from the color of your skin, no amount of 'good works' will absolve you of being a racist. 'Speaking truth to power' is about attacking racism at it's source; white Americans.

now that is a bit extreme; but that's how it was portrayed. You lost the debate (what debate? how could you possibly debate your evil nature? shut up!) before you could even open your mouth. So we got platitudes about 'we need a dialog about racism', when all we got was a monologue...

So a lot of us just shut up and got out of the way. Since we're the sole cause for worldwide racism (or so it was explained to us), there's no way we could be part of the solution.

Some people might even say that racism is whatever it needs to be, for your purposes.



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20 May 2009, 8:32 pm

Racism is wrong because no individual can be reduced to their skin color, any more than they can be reduced to their hair color, their shoe size, or their accent.

Zoonic wrote:
Domestic racism is never truly blind. It's always a sort of generalized retaliation against another form of racism.

Since you claim that Muslims and Jews are racist, doesn't it follow from your logic that they are merely retaliating against European racism?


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20 May 2009, 8:41 pm

DrizzleMan wrote:
Since you claim that Muslims and Jews are racist, doesn't it follow from your logic that they are merely retaliating against European racism?


No, since asians living in Europe don't behave like that. If europeans were so racist then asians too would be as hated as the muslims and in some cases the jews. At least in Sweden hardly anyone is racist towards asians but many are racist against muslims and/or jews.