U.S. Gun Violence

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Dox47
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26 Jan 2014, 10:25 pm

Stannis wrote:

The violent language in this metaphor is a nice illustration of what I was talking about when I said that many gun geeks have an unhealthy and callous attitude toward violence and death. It points to what I think is a major element of U.S Red State gun culture: The intimidation of liberals with guns.

You know that I don't live in a red state, right? And that intimidating *anyone* with guns is illegal in every state, right? And that the laughing emote attached to things denotes a joke, right?

Way to make my point about the ignorance of the anti gun camp though.

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Dox47
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26 Jan 2014, 10:34 pm

Stannis wrote:

Vast amounts of reading on the subject make me feel that my opinion might have some value to others. I expect the response to this will have something in it about the liberal media.

There's an old writer's adage that goes "show, don't tell", and while you're telling us that you have this valuable opinion, all you've shown us is the same old crap we've been seeing from your ilk for years. Make interesting and original posts, or don't whine about it when we call you out on claiming an expertise you don't appear to possess. I'm a gunsmith with a degree, Raptor is an RSO with years of firearms experience, SJC has owned and carried firearms for years; what wisdom has your "vast amounts of reading" imparted upon you that you think is news to us?

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Stannis
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27 Jan 2014, 12:34 am

Dox47 wrote:

Stannis wrote:

I understood you were joking. Your jokes about curb stomping people who disagree with you does little to convince me that your attitude towards violence is particularly healthy.

Dox47 wrote:

Quote:

You know that I don't live in a red state, right? And that intimidating *anyone* with guns is illegal in every state, right?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZBE783_jb0[/youtube]

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27 Jan 2014, 1:38 am

/\
I saw no one being threatened.
Depending on that state's carry laws, no laws may have even been broken.

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Stannis
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27 Jan 2014, 2:01 am

Raptor wrote:

/\
I saw no one being threatened.
Depending on that state's carry laws, no laws may have even been broken.

The purpose of that clip was to demonstrate a well known case of people taking guns to a public event in order to intimidate democratic politicians, and all those in attendance there.

I made the point to demonstrate a claim after this ad-hominem response was given;

Sliqua-jcooter wrote:

Quote:

Again I'll ask: what qualifications make you an expert on gun owners or gun culture. Why should I care at all about what you have to say?

To my statement;

Stannis wrote:

Quote:

Last edited by Stannis on 27 Jan 2014, 2:30 am, edited 8 times in total.

sliqua-jcooter
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27 Jan 2014, 2:36 am

Stannis wrote:

The purpose of that clip was to demonstrate a well known case of people taking guns to a public event in order to intimidate democratic politicians, and all those in attendance there.

Again, you *assume* that the purpose of carrying firearms was to intimidate. And so does Chris Matthews. And both of you are wrong.

In that particular instance, libertarians were protesting the ACA - and it just so happens that libertarians are the kind of people who carry every day, especially open carry. One had nothing to do with the other.

Also, the assumption on Chris Matthews' part that "eventually somebody is gonna use one" is patently absurd.

So the answer to my question, as you've demonstrated, is that you have 0 knowledge of the gun culture in America - and you clearly don't understand gun owners.

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Stannis
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27 Jan 2014, 2:42 am

sliqua-jcooter wrote:

Stannis wrote:

The purpose of that clip was to demonstrate a well known case of people taking guns to a public event in order to intimidate democratic politicians, and all those in attendance there.

Again, you *assume* that the purpose of carrying firearms was to intimidate. And so does Chris Matthews. And both of you are wrong.

In that particular instance, libertarians were protesting the ACA - and it just so happens that libertarians are the kind of people who carry, especially open carry. One had nothing to do with the other.

Also, the assumption on Chris Matthews' part that "eventually somebody is gonna use one" is patently absurd.

So the answer to my question, as you've demonstrated, is that you have 0 knowledge of the gun culture in America - and you clearly don't understand gun owners.

And you do? I think you are fallaciously projecting your own beliefs onto other gun owners.

Last edited by Stannis on 27 Jan 2014, 2:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

sliqua-jcooter
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27 Jan 2014, 2:44 am

Stannis wrote:

I think you are fallaciously projecting your own beliefs onto other gun owners.

Go back and re-watch that video and count how many libertarian flags show up next to protesters with guns. Then go rethink your position.

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Dox47
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27 Jan 2014, 2:48 am

sliqua-jcooter wrote:

Then go rethink your position.

That would require him having thought it out in the first place.

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Stannis
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27 Jan 2014, 2:48 am

sliqua-jcooter wrote:

Stannis wrote:

I think you are fallaciously projecting your own beliefs onto other gun owners.

Go back and re-watch that video and count how many libertarian flags show up next to protesters with guns. Then go rethink your position.

I did not mean that you were fallaciously projecting libertarian beliefs onto the protesters, I meant that you were (I think) fallaciously projecting their intent.

Last edited by Stannis on 27 Jan 2014, 3:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

Dox47
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27 Jan 2014, 2:58 am

Stannis wrote:

I understood you were joking. Your jokes about curb stomping people who disagree with you does little to convince me that your attitude towards violence is particularly healthy.

Who said I was trying to convince you of anything? All that an intelligent person would draw from my remark is that I view debate as a form of intellectual combat and/or that I like martial metaphors, but then again, you haven't done anything to convince me that you're intelligent or informed. Quite the opposite, in fact.

As to your video, you're just digging yourself a deeper hole, as the purpose of open carry at political events in the US is not intimidation, but rather to normalize the sight of civilians with firearms in an attempt to roll back years of stigmatization from anti gun organizations. As a politically active US gun owner, I'm in a much better position to know about these things.

Really, you ought to learn about a subject before presenting yourself as an authority on it, otherwise you risk looking... foolish.

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Dox47
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27 Jan 2014, 3:00 am

Stannis wrote:

The purpose of that clip was to demonstrate a well known case of people taking guns to a public event in order to intimidate democratic politicians, and all those in attendance there.

You're claiming psychic powers now?

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sliqua-jcooter
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27 Jan 2014, 3:04 am

Stannis wrote:

sliqua-jcooter wrote:

Stannis wrote:

I think you are fallaciously projecting your own beliefs onto other gun owners.

Go back and re-watch that video and count how many libertarian flags show up next to protesters with guns. Then go rethink your position.

I did not mean that you were fallaciously projecting libertarian beliefs onto the protesters, I meant that you were (I think) fallaciously projecting their intent.

Thinking back on it, around the time that video was made I was *one* of those people at those ACA meetings carrying a gun. Given that I live right outside Washington, DC - there were a few of those meetings that I went to. I didn't wake up that day, say to myself "gee, I'm going to a political event - I should bring my gun" - I carry every single day of my life, so this wasn't any different (but, according to Chris Matthews, nobody ever brings a gun when they don't intend to use it :roll:

). There were a few other people carrying as well - and I knew all of them from the opencarry.org picnics.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY8XxVmSpCQ[/youtube]

Oh, by the way, at the time I was on the "pro-ACA" side of the debate.

EDIT: I thought of another thing I want to say. If you're going to accept the premise that the people carrying at these protests are libertarians, then as long as you know *anything* about libertarianism it becomes self-evident that they're not trying to "intimidate" anyone because of their political beliefs.

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Last edited by sliqua-jcooter on 27 Jan 2014, 5:12 am, edited 2 times in total.

Dox47
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27 Jan 2014, 3:05 am

Just out of curiosity, can anyone provide an example of a gun person being threatening here on WP? It seems we've had a lot of these sorts of accusations lately, yet in my years here I can't ever recall having seen any threats being made in a gun thread, and I can't imagine that's something the mods would tolerate even if I happened to have missed it. I can think of a number of threats made outside of gun threads, but none of those came from any of the handful of us that defend firearms on here, though at least one was directed at one of us.

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27 Jan 2014, 3:52 am

Raptor wrote:

Sardines are eaten by bigger fish because they are small and edible and cannot improve their lot.
People who are prey very often can but won't protect themselves because they:
-Believe that by responding to to an attacker with violence makes them equally at fault
-Believe that they are not and can never be a match against their assailant (apathy)
-Believe that the means of self defense is icky
-Believe that the goveremnt should ban all guns and then, of course, all guns would magically vanish and we'd all live long and prosper

Of course, they want us all to adopt their mindset.

You mean defending yourself against an adversary throwing nerve gas into your house? Or setting you up with a road side bomb? C'mon even at some point you said you see the value of drawing a line and denying your adversary deadly weapons.

Nobody says guns will magically vanish. It takes REAL law enforcement efforts and an effective law is just the beginning. Again, where have those criminals with destructive devices gone, so that we 'only' need to worry about criminals with guns?

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27 Jan 2014, 4:53 am

CBA to read 27 pages of this thread so just going to say that imo America over the years seems to have gone from a country that tolerated guns to a country that celebrates guns.

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