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prometheuspann
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28 Aug 2008, 1:46 pm

i'm an atheist, by the way. i can account for the sensation of spirituality and certainly the introspection that comes along with a proper trip and what you should learn but no gods. at most i think the idea of singularity is very interesting. quantum entanglement of sorts. no entity of god like most describe...that's just a reflection of the ego and desperation.
------
Right. Your capacity to stand back and more or less let this transpire tells me your probably a person to whom this
whole starting premise of mine doesn't really apply.
The understanding of the difference between god concepts and "singularity"/ quantum information is pretty key to that,
in my opinion. I don't make any claims for anybodies gods as anything more than symbols that got reified.
---------

alan moore is a writer but holds many similar spiritual views. check out the video on him sometime if you can (you can find it online for download). it's called "the mindscape of alan moore". he talks about his comics but more of the focus ends up being on his views of culture and spirituality and society...which are all fairly common themes in his books anyways.
----------
okay, but, Won't you link us?
:D



prometheuspann
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28 Aug 2008, 1:47 pm

the two fundies agree with each other! yay!
:lol:



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28 Aug 2008, 1:48 pm

monty wrote:
prometheuspann wrote:
the difference, monty, between you and the other atheist is probably the majority of that spectrum.


I'm not an atheist. Not that there is anything wrong with that. :)


were you just pulling my leg to see where i'd go with it or what???

:roll: :lol:



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28 Aug 2008, 1:50 pm

Thanks, will give that long post some thought.

1 other thought:

prometheuspann wrote:
-----------
of those, only fasting seems to have any effect that I have seen. Merely praying assumes that God as such is listening.



What about mantra and rosary prayers? Have you read this paper:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ... d=11751348

It is mostly about easy to measure variables (heart, breathing, HRV, not brainwaves), but I would hazard a guess that it changes brainwaves as well.



prometheuspann
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28 Aug 2008, 2:10 pm

interesting. no, hadn't seen that article.
Thanks, its very relevant.

Mostly sounds like good for alpha states and minor increased theta activity.

as long as we are exchanging interesting articles, heres i guess an interesting one to stop with...

I have to go to sleep- been up all night.

So i do hope that folks come visit my site ...

http://mytalktoday.com/solutions/index.php
-----------------

Turns out, cavemen loved to sing
Ancient hunters painted sections of caves where music sounded best
Iegor Reznikoff / University of Paris X (Nanterre)
A prehistoric artist painted this ibex in the Salon Noir, part of the Niaux cave complex in France.
View related photos


INTERACTIVE
Image: Festival

Good times in ancient times
Ancient peoples knew how to party long before we were born. Find out how they let loose.

LiveScience
• Times Square Gets Solar-Powered Billboard
• Image of the Day: Summer Declaration
• Cave Men Loved to Sing
• Tigers Vanish in Nepal
Related stories

What’s this?
Photo of Amazon tribe not a hoax
Chemical robots squeeze into our future
Shoppers pay more for local food
Future aircraft might repair themselves
Why the thumbs-up won't go away
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Dateline's most unforgettable 911 calls
Angry flier uses emergency slide to leave plane
FedEx delivers hefty pot package to wrong place
The detective's daughter
Elk may be culled to battle disease threat
Most viewed on msnbc.com
Ex-captive meets her kids for 1st time in 6 years
Voyager 2 confirms solar system is dented
New treatment may finally kill herpes virus
Colombian hostages say life in jungle grew dire
Inside Mugabe's violent crackdown
Most viewed on msnbc.com
Angry flier uses emergency slide to leave plane
FedEx delivers hefty pot package to wrong place
Elk may be culled to battle disease threat
The buck doesn’t stop here; it just keeps falling
Crikey! ‘Croc Hunter’ daughter gets own doll
Most viewed on msnbc.com
By Heather Whipps
updated 9:54 a.m. PT, Thurs., July. 3, 2008

Ancient hunters painted the sections of their cave dwellings where singing, humming and music sounded best, a new study suggests.

Analyzing the famous, ochre-splashed cave walls of France, scientists found that the most densely painted areas were also those with the best acoustics. Humming into some bends in the wall even produced sounds mimicking the animals painted there.

The Upper Paleolithic people responsible for the paintings had likely fine-tuned their hearing to recognize the sound qualities in certain parts of the cave and chose to do their artwork there as a kind of landmark, perhaps as part of a singing ritual, said researcher Iegor Reznikoff, a specialist in ancient music at the University of Paris X in Nanterre.
Story continues below ?advertisement

Reznikoff will present his findings at the upcoming Acoustical Society of America meeting in Paris.

Cave dwellers used echolocation
People who lived in Europe during the Upper Paleolithic — from 10,000 to 40,000 years ago — spent a lot of time in caves, often living there or at least camping out for short periods.

"They were hunters in cold conditions," Reznikoff told LiveScience.

With only dull light available from a torch, which couldn't be carried into very narrow passages, the ancient hunters had to use their voices like sonar to explore the crooks and crannies of a newfound cave, Reznikoff explained.

"When acting in a cave in conditions similar to prehistoric ones ... the surroundings a few meters ahead are almost completely dark," he said, adding that "since sound reaches much farther than reduced light, especially in irregular surroundings, the only possibility and security is to explore the cave with the voice and its echoing effects."

Vast murals were part of ritual system
When they vacated their caves, many Paleolithic people left behind vast murals depicting bison, mammoth, ibex and other local fauna, as well as splotches of color — usually red — along narrow hallways and corners. A famous example is the network of caves at Lascaux, France, which contains several thousand figures painted across its walls.

Image: A bison in the Salon Noir which sounds like Romanesque chapel.
Iegor Reznikoff / Univ. of Paris X (Nanterre)
This bison was painted in the Salon Noir, which has the acoustics of a Romanesque chapel.

The cave paintings were part of a ritual system — like early religious beliefs — practiced by Paleolithic humans that likely also included singing and music, Reznikoff said. He noted that bone whistles and flutes have been found inside many of the caves.

What archaeologists didn't know was whether the paintings and music were connected.

Suspecting a possible link, Reznikoff and a team used voice resonance to study the acoustics in caves across France. Some work was done in past years and combined with the latest findings.

Checking the resonances
A trained vocalist was sent through the caves testing different sounds and pitches in various locations. Spots of maximum resonance, or places where the voice was most amplified and clear, were noted in each section and later laid over a map of the cave drawings.

Image: The 'Diamond encrusted' mammoth in the most resonant location of the main cave.
M. Girard / Collection La Varende
A "diamond-encrusted" mammoth was painted at the most resonant location in the main cave at Arcy-sur-Cure.
The vast majority of the paintings, up to 90 percent in some cases, were located directly at, or very near, the spots where the acoustics were the absolute best, they found.

Single red spots were even discovered in the most resonant areas of tiny tunnels where people could have crawled only in the dark, suggesting that the paintings were not just coincidentally located in the biggest, best open spaces where the sound was also rich, Reznikoff said.

Some reverberations produced in the caves' resonant spots also sounded very similar to the animals painted on the walls nearby, he noted.

Sights and sounds come together
Because Paleolithic humans had a deep connection with the melodic properties that helped them navigate in a cave, they likely celebrated the unique acoustics by singing in conjunction with their painting sessions.

Image: An ibex in the most resonant location of the main cave.
M. Girard / Collection La Varende
An ibex appears at the most resonant location in Arcy-sur-Cure's main cave.
"Why would the Paleolithic tribes choose preferably resonant locations for painting," he said, "if it were not for making sounds and singing in some kind of ritual celebrations related with the pictures?"

The phenomenon isn't limited to the interior of caves, either. Studies have been done at some outdoor Paleolithic sites in France and Finland, and the sound-painting connection is also strong, Reznikoff said.

At a site called the Lac des Merveilles in Provence, there is a large flat rock archaeologists have labeled the Altar Stone, covered with more than a thousand pictures.

"There by the lake, the echo answers whole melodies and it is a pleasure to sing or play at this place; one can easily imagine celebrations using voice and horns," said Reznikoff.



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02 Sep 2008, 11:39 am

prometheuspann wrote:
BTW how does an atheist tell a Christian how to tallk to God? Christians don't need that kind of help from non-believers.
------------
It would be better for you to think in terms of me having two different conversations. While this may be hard for you to appreciate, the truth is that my perspective is large enough to encompass both sides. As obi wan kenobi once told luke while walking around glowing as a ghost "you are going to find that the truths we believe in very much depend on your point of view." (or. something like that.)

To put it in perspective for you, the entire argument from my perspective is just an argument between two branches of one
paradigm tree. The difference may seem very large to you, but to me, I have to descend from my normative perspective to even tell them apart- at all.

For your purposes, thus, it would be better for you to consider me as simply a person who talks with what you would term God.

This is how you frame and reference reality, and its completely true, given your perspective. From An atheists perspective,
That would be described very differently if said atheist had any lucidity- Which is a paradox, their cognitive dissonance does not allow them to see how science actually proves that god does exist. They have a different definition of everything.

So, what you mean by "non believer" is simply not true of me. Instead, I have direct experience, and so "Belief" as such is not required. At the same time, that direct experience gives me a much clearer window into whats actually real and what isn't.

"God" might be rationally defined and the net effect of the field of quantum information as it operates in the entire universe. Consciousness arises as an emergent property out of quantum information; specifically in any system with a large number of nodes which share information. You are a biochemical system with biochemical nodes called brain cells.
Consciousness arises in you because that large number of nodes communicates. The complexity of each node adds to the energy potential of the field, and allows consciousness to arise in a space orders of magnitude smaller than sheer quantum information generated consciousness. The universe as a whole has consciousness because all quanta are sharing information with each other. You are not separate from that field, you are part of it. You can call this God, and others
can call it other things. Atheists would prefer to pretend that quantum information and its effects don't exist at all.

Having thus defined "God", lets move on to how to communicate with it. This requires a process of id resolution in which
the mind gradually resolves the issues of the subliminal mind, and comes to what might be called dynamic inner peace.
Obtaining first waking alpha, then delta, and then theta brain wave conditions, each step of the way resolving more shadow issues. In the case of alpha brainwaves, the limbic system and mammalian brain. In the case of delta brain waves,
the reptile brain. In the case of theta brain waves, the two hemispheres and the whole brain, and especially the optic circuit, as wel las the temporal lobes and occipital lobes.

Once a person comes to the place of true inner silence, the whole of the self can be turned into a sounding board, or a sense organ. Ones own personal sentience stilled can then begin to pick up the resonances at play in the larger field of sentience which it is surrounded by.

This is of course a very super simplified explanation, but, I hope that it answers your question for now.




Precisely ...Extremely well said

albeit a tad more humility would have rendered the presentation more palatable to the average reader. doesn't bother me though. your posts like fresh air in a stale vacuum of status quo driven insanity

not to mention.......
it behooves us to listen to good ideas that promote problem solving abilities in all of us...
are we going to be part of the problem or part of the solution.. ...(?)

we pray and scream and in our delusion make promises we can't keep beseeching whatever god(s) we hope will hear our pitiful moans...but have scant faith to keep our part of the bargain. we don't think help will come, when it does come we question the source and more often than not we'll try to stone it to death in our failure to recognize it

corporate greed hasn't yet found it profitable to enable the masses to connect with god, therefore anything that enables authentic connection with god must be discouraged...that failing, it must be destroyed....thus trolling and rampant insufferable ignorance..

many of us have come to the conclusion that god is our only hope that only god can get us out of the mess we're in. the information provided in this post can be tweaked so that every person on this planet (with very few exceptions) can understand what they must do if they want to be part of the solution. he has shown us how to raise ourselves up by our own bootstraps.



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03 Sep 2008, 12:43 pm

Anubis wrote:
Seriously, some people need lives, and would do well to stop generalising religion as bad. Every other thread seems to be about devout atheists taking religion literally. Dogmatic, fanatical atheists suck, and they let the more rational moderate atheists and agnostics down. By condemning religion at every turn, and simply believing everything that condemns religion, you are blinding yourself. Maybe some morons should try to be tolerant, and not act like they know the answer to everything. Instead of ranting on about how religion is the source of all the world's problems, perhaps the individuals in question - yes, you all know who you are - should study the world and social systems more, and make their own personal opinions, not believe everything that they are spoon fed, by any form of media or social group.
"Atheism seems cool and radical, so I'm going to become an atheist!!" Same applies to "new age" religions and philosophies. As teenagers, we are too susceptible to these things. That said, it's natural for young people to experiment. Just don't expect things to change just like that unless you are prepared to take radical action. Look at the 1950s-80s to see what I mean.
You aren't going to change religious beliefs by quoting scriptures literally, or by rabidly attacking theists. It doesn't work that way. You can't just say that "God does not exist!! !!", it just alienates people. Learn some respect and understanding. =)
Theism is flawed. Atheism is flawed. For the record, I'm agnostic.


if one calls himself an atheist then he is admitting that god exists. You can't deny something doesn't exist because by the very denying the it, it points out it exists...
as for atheist crusade, atheists don't need to save the Holy land, so we cannot have crusades either. Your rant here is also the pot calling the kettle black.

BTW I was 32 years atheist...I don't believe in institutionalized religions (christianity started as a sect too) but I believe in being spiritual, I believe in entities, spirits good and evil and reincarnation


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03 Sep 2008, 12:45 pm

prometheuspann wrote:
interesting. no, hadn't seen that article.
Thanks, its very relevant.

Mostly sounds like good for alpha states and minor increased theta activity.

as long as we are exchanging interesting articles, heres i guess an interesting one to stop with...

I have to go to sleep- been up all night.

So i do hope that folks come visit my site ...

http://mytalktoday.com/solutions/index.php
-----------------

Turns out, cavemen loved to sing
Ancient hunters painted sections of caves where music sounded best
Iegor Reznikoff / University of Paris X (Nanterre)
A prehistoric artist painted this ibex in the Salon Noir, part of the Niaux cave complex in France.
View related photos


INTERACTIVE
Image: Festival

Good times in ancient times
Ancient peoples knew how to party long before we were born. Find out how they let loose.

LiveScience
• Times Square Gets Solar-Powered Billboard
• Image of the Day: Summer Declaration
• Cave Men Loved to Sing
• Tigers Vanish in Nepal
Related stories

What’s this?
Photo of Amazon tribe not a hoax
Chemical robots squeeze into our future
Shoppers pay more for local food
Future aircraft might repair themselves
Why the thumbs-up won't go away
Most popular
• Most viewed • Top rated • Most e-mailed
Dateline's most unforgettable 911 calls
Angry flier uses emergency slide to leave plane
FedEx delivers hefty pot package to wrong place
The detective's daughter
Elk may be culled to battle disease threat
Most viewed on msnbc.com
Ex-captive meets her kids for 1st time in 6 years
Voyager 2 confirms solar system is dented
New treatment may finally kill herpes virus
Colombian hostages say life in jungle grew dire
Inside Mugabe's violent crackdown
Most viewed on msnbc.com
Angry flier uses emergency slide to leave plane
FedEx delivers hefty pot package to wrong place
Elk may be culled to battle disease threat
The buck doesn’t stop here; it just keeps falling
Crikey! ‘Croc Hunter’ daughter gets own doll
Most viewed on msnbc.com
By Heather Whipps
updated 9:54 a.m. PT, Thurs., July. 3, 2008

Ancient hunters painted the sections of their cave dwellings where singing, humming and music sounded best, a new study suggests.

Analyzing the famous, ochre-splashed cave walls of France, scientists found that the most densely painted areas were also those with the best acoustics. Humming into some bends in the wall even produced sounds mimicking the animals painted there.

The Upper Paleolithic people responsible for the paintings had likely fine-tuned their hearing to recognize the sound qualities in certain parts of the cave and chose to do their artwork there as a kind of landmark, perhaps as part of a singing ritual, said researcher Iegor Reznikoff, a specialist in ancient music at the University of Paris X in Nanterre.
Story continues below ?advertisement

Reznikoff will present his findings at the upcoming Acoustical Society of America meeting in Paris.

Cave dwellers used echolocation
People who lived in Europe during the Upper Paleolithic — from 10,000 to 40,000 years ago — spent a lot of time in caves, often living there or at least camping out for short periods.

"They were hunters in cold conditions," Reznikoff told LiveScience.

With only dull light available from a torch, which couldn't be carried into very narrow passages, the ancient hunters had to use their voices like sonar to explore the crooks and crannies of a newfound cave, Reznikoff explained.

"When acting in a cave in conditions similar to prehistoric ones ... the surroundings a few meters ahead are almost completely dark," he said, adding that "since sound reaches much farther than reduced light, especially in irregular surroundings, the only possibility and security is to explore the cave with the voice and its echoing effects."

Vast murals were part of ritual system
When they vacated their caves, many Paleolithic people left behind vast murals depicting bison, mammoth, ibex and other local fauna, as well as splotches of color — usually red — along narrow hallways and corners. A famous example is the network of caves at Lascaux, France, which contains several thousand figures painted across its walls.

Image: A bison in the Salon Noir which sounds like Romanesque chapel.
Iegor Reznikoff / Univ. of Paris X (Nanterre)
This bison was painted in the Salon Noir, which has the acoustics of a Romanesque chapel.

The cave paintings were part of a ritual system — like early religious beliefs — practiced by Paleolithic humans that likely also included singing and music, Reznikoff said. He noted that bone whistles and flutes have been found inside many of the caves.

What archaeologists didn't know was whether the paintings and music were connected.

Suspecting a possible link, Reznikoff and a team used voice resonance to study the acoustics in caves across France. Some work was done in past years and combined with the latest findings.

Checking the resonances
A trained vocalist was sent through the caves testing different sounds and pitches in various locations. Spots of maximum resonance, or places where the voice was most amplified and clear, were noted in each section and later laid over a map of the cave drawings.

Image: The 'Diamond encrusted' mammoth in the most resonant location of the main cave.
M. Girard / Collection La Varende
A "diamond-encrusted" mammoth was painted at the most resonant location in the main cave at Arcy-sur-Cure.
The vast majority of the paintings, up to 90 percent in some cases, were located directly at, or very near, the spots where the acoustics were the absolute best, they found.

Single red spots were even discovered in the most resonant areas of tiny tunnels where people could have crawled only in the dark, suggesting that the paintings were not just coincidentally located in the biggest, best open spaces where the sound was also rich, Reznikoff said.

Some reverberations produced in the caves' resonant spots also sounded very similar to the animals painted on the walls nearby, he noted.

Sights and sounds come together
Because Paleolithic humans had a deep connection with the melodic properties that helped them navigate in a cave, they likely celebrated the unique acoustics by singing in conjunction with their painting sessions.

Image: An ibex in the most resonant location of the main cave.
M. Girard / Collection La Varende
An ibex appears at the most resonant location in Arcy-sur-Cure's main cave.
"Why would the Paleolithic tribes choose preferably resonant locations for painting," he said, "if it were not for making sounds and singing in some kind of ritual celebrations related with the pictures?"

The phenomenon isn't limited to the interior of caves, either. Studies have been done at some outdoor Paleolithic sites in France and Finland, and the sound-painting connection is also strong, Reznikoff said.

At a site called the Lac des Merveilles in Provence, there is a large flat rock archaeologists have labeled the Altar Stone, covered with more than a thousand pictures.

"There by the lake, the echo answers whole melodies and it is a pleasure to sing or play at this place; one can easily imagine celebrations using voice and horns," said Reznikoff.


do you expect us to read all of this?


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03 Sep 2008, 12:53 pm

Atheist do not deny the existance of an existing God.

They believe whole-heartedly in the non-existance of any god, godling, or supernatural being.


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03 Sep 2008, 12:54 pm

theis is GOD. By putting a in front of it you deny it.


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03 Sep 2008, 1:09 pm

Loborojo wrote:
theis is GOD. By putting a in front of it you deny it.

And by your use of the pronoun "it", you deny God's as a person, and consign Him to the realm of created things.


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03 Sep 2008, 1:13 pm

Fnord wrote:
Loborojo wrote:
theis is GOD. By putting a in front of it you deny it.

And by your use of the pronoun "it", you deny God's as a person, and consign Him to the realm of created things.

it means an entity, could male or female or be hermafrodite...which we were in the beginning (Adam and Eve were one, and Eve with the help of the serpent ripped herself from Adam in order to get the same wisdom as God and Adam, but with the help of the serpent. So it wasn't the biting of the apple that was sin, but the fact that she envied same status as a man)


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03 Sep 2008, 1:28 pm

Loborojo wrote:
if one calls himself an atheist then he is admitting that god exists. You can't deny something doesn't exist because by the very denying the it, it points out it exists...


I deny that there are little green men living on the moon; I deny the existence of Martians ... does this denial mean they must exist?? You really have to try better if you are trying to prove an affirmative claim. The fact that someone recognizes that you made a claim does not mean they must therefore agree with you. Alternatively, Here's your proof:

Image



Last edited by monty on 03 Sep 2008, 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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03 Sep 2008, 1:31 pm

monty wrote:
Loborojo wrote:
if one calls himself an atheist then he is admitting that god exists. You can't deny something doesn't exist because by the very denying the it, it points out it exists...


I deny that there are little green men living on the moon ... does this denial mean they must exist??


we wouldn't be discussing them if they didn't. Someone once has mention extraterrestial life somewhere sometime and hence we debate it, whther they are green, black or spectrum doesn´t matter


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03 Sep 2008, 1:33 pm

Loborojo wrote:
monty wrote:
Loborojo wrote:
if one calls himself an atheist then he is admitting that god exists. You can't deny something doesn't exist because by the very denying the it, it points out it exists...


I deny that there are little green men living on the moon ... does this denial mean they must exist??


we wouldn't be discussing them if they didn't. Someone once has mention extraterrestial life somewhere sometime and hence we debate it, whther they are green, black or spectrum doesn´t matter


I guess you believe in unicorns and dragons, too?

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03 Sep 2008, 1:35 pm

absolutely


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