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GGPViper
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23 Jul 2013, 5:43 pm

/\ Raptor, click the first link in the post you just quoted.

My statement:

"No, my version is that George Zimmerman was charged with second degree murder and subsequently acquitted in a court of law."

I do not recall asking for Zimmerman to be hanged, let alone for the verdict to be invalid. I have found no evidence to indicate that the jury did not follow the letter of the law when passing their verdict.

As I have stated several times in this thread, my issue is with the portrayal of the characters of Martin and Zimmerman, respectively. And here I *have* found evidence of frequent falsehoods about Martin being circulated, and I have confronted several posters about their erroneous depictions of Martin.



Raptor
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23 Jul 2013, 9:42 pm

This, and the one about hoodies says somthing

Image


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redriverronin
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23 Jul 2013, 10:30 pm

Raptor wrote:
This, and the one about hoodies says somthing

Image


We really need a media outlet that speaks to the majority and not the minority of idiots that find this intelligent and or funny.



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23 Jul 2013, 10:42 pm

/\ Given the graphics used I'd put it under the label of trollery. :P


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23 Jul 2013, 11:29 pm

Max000 wrote:
No they don't look fake to me either. But they do look superficial. Possibly self-inflicted.


You forget Z's claim of self defense was not that T was going to punch him to death but that T saw his gun and was reaching for it.

Self inflicted...Despite the fact that witnesses saw the last minute of the fight with T on top of Z and as Z shot and got on top of T's BACK and held his arms apart to restrain him (he claims he thought he had missed and T was giving up) and police arrived on site during that minute.

Oh wait.. he must've head-butted his own face on the very spot on the pavement next to here T was to be shot...BEFORE T confronted him! Why that cunning vanilla halfbreed has it all planned to the last detail...and no meddling kids and their dog will ever thwart his nefarious plan! :roll:



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24 Jul 2013, 12:30 am

Max000 wrote:
LKL wrote:
@ Max: the injuries on the police videos don't look fake to me, but neither do they look like he was in any significant peril.


No they don't look fake to me either. But they do look superficial. Possibly self-inflicted.


Self-inflicted... Z asked kindly M to sit over him, who agreed as a courtesy, then killed him in cold blood, then bashed his own head against the floor... ajem...

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:


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24 Jul 2013, 12:54 am

I'm not sure what the point of saying his injuries were superficial are, is he suppose to wait until he's badly injured before defending himself? He was pinned to the ground getting his skull bashed into the sidewalk, at what point would he have been justified in defending himself? When jaw gets broke, his orbital gets smashed, his skulled cracked? Even if he did 'provoke' Trayvon somehow(not physically since Trayvon had no injuries besides the fatal gun shot and busted knuckles), is Zimmerman suppose to just lie there and get beaten to death?

Suggesting his wounds were self-inflicted is probably the silliest thing I ever heard, I do not believe you are being serious Max. Bravo, you are a master troll.



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24 Jul 2013, 1:50 am

Dantac wrote:
You forget Z's claim of self defense was not that T was going to punch him to death but that T saw his gun and was reaching for it. [/quote}
Wait, so which was it? Was Martin bashing Z on the ground, or was he going for the gun? Or was Z so outmanned that Martin could hold him down with one hand and reach for the gun with the other?

Quote:
Self inflicted...Despite the fact that witnesses saw the last minute of the fight with T on top of Z and as Z shot and got on top of T's BACK and held his arms apart to restrain him (he claims he thought he had missed and T was giving up) and police arrived on site during that minute.

'Cause the guy on top is *always* the bad guy. You can tell any time you watch an old Western movie.

Jacoby wrote:
I'm not sure what the point of saying his injuries were superficial are, is he suppose to wait until he's badly injured before defending himself? He was pinned to the ground getting his skull bashed into the sidewalk, at what point would he have been justified in defending himself? When jaw gets broke, his orbital gets smashed, his skulled cracked? Even if he did 'provoke' Trayvon somehow(not physically since Trayvon had no injuries besides the fatal gun shot and busted knuckles), is Zimmerman suppose to just lie there and get beaten to death?

The point is to suggest that he was lying about what TM actually did and how the physical conflict actually went down; the point is that he exaggerated his own physical danger to better justify his own use of the gun.

As for your slippery slope, it goes the other way too: how *little* danger justifies shooting someone? When someone slaps you? When someone grabs your lapel? When someone enters your personal space?



zer0netgain
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24 Jul 2013, 8:23 am

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ebu6Yvzs4Ls#at=607[/youtube]



Jacoby
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24 Jul 2013, 9:56 am

LKL wrote:
Dantac wrote:
You forget Z's claim of self defense was not that T was going to punch him to death but that T saw his gun and was reaching for it. [/quote}
Wait, so which was it? Was Martin bashing Z on the ground, or was he going for the gun? Or was Z so outmanned that Martin could hold him down with one hand and reach for the gun with the other?

Quote:
Self inflicted...Despite the fact that witnesses saw the last minute of the fight with T on top of Z and as Z shot and got on top of T's BACK and held his arms apart to restrain him (he claims he thought he had missed and T was giving up) and police arrived on site during that minute.

'Cause the guy on top is *always* the bad guy. You can tell any time you watch an old Western movie.

Jacoby wrote:
I'm not sure what the point of saying his injuries were superficial are, is he suppose to wait until he's badly injured before defending himself? He was pinned to the ground getting his skull bashed into the sidewalk, at what point would he have been justified in defending himself? When jaw gets broke, his orbital gets smashed, his skulled cracked? Even if he did 'provoke' Trayvon somehow(not physically since Trayvon had no injuries besides the fatal gun shot and busted knuckles), is Zimmerman suppose to just lie there and get beaten to death?

The point is to suggest that he was lying about what TM actually did and how the physical conflict actually went down; the point is that he exaggerated his own physical danger to better justify his own use of the gun.

As for your slippery slope, it goes the other way too: how *little* danger justifies shooting someone? When someone slaps you? When someone grabs your lapel? When someone enters your personal space?


We can never know if Trayvon reached for his gun or if he threatened to kill Zimmerman, we do know Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman beating his face in and that Trayvon had no injuries besides his fatal wound and his knuckles. Whatever Zimmerman did if anything at all to provoke that beating, Trayvon went way beyond just defending himself. It's not a slippery slope, I honestly want to know at what point would Zimmerman be justified in defending himself EVEN if he did provoke the beating? The physical evidence and the eyewitness reports do not contradict Zimmerman's story.

As for your question as for how little danger justifies shooting someone, it's really something that should be considered on a case by case basis. I don't believe it's something you can have a one size fits all type enforcement of. You have to be within reason and a slap or grabbing someones collar in of its self wouldn't cause somebody to fear for their life but the context of the situation may be more complex. Just hypothetically, lets say you have an abusive ex that shows your house drunk that has threatened to kill you multiple times in the past and starts accosting you in front of your children. You can't expect someone to be brutalized or seriously injured before defending themselves with deadly force, that's an unrealistic standard to have in my opinion but the fear needs be with in reason.



zer0netgain
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24 Jul 2013, 11:26 am

http://lastresistance.com/2787/say-hell ... zimmerman/

Quote:
Did you notice during the George Zimmerman trial how the media kept repeating the salacious question “What if Trayvon Martin had been white?” They acted as if this question was the perfect response to Zimmerman defenders. They pretended that this was a question without a “safe” answer, but in reality, the question had already been answered.

In April of 2009 Mr. Roderick Scott awoke at 3am to the sounds of three young men breaking into cars on his street. He called the police and went down to the street to make sure the young men did not flee before the police arrived. He shouted at the three to “freeze” and told them that the police were coming soon. The three boys stood before the big man obviously considering what they should do.

That’s when Christopher Cervini (17) rushed at Mr. Scott uttering “I’ll get you” or “I’ll get him.” Roderick Scott fired twice, killing the teenager. The trial that followed was again a case of prosecutorial overreach, as they tried to charge Mr. Scott with manslaughter. Fortunately for Mr. Scott, a jury of his peers agreed with him that he did only what was needed to protect himself.

Afterwards the prosecutor opined, “I just hope it’s not a message to this community… that you have the right to shoot an unarmed 17-year-old kid for breaking into a car.” The problem is that Mr. Scott did not shoot young Christopher Cervini for breaking into his car, but for attacking him. While the Cervini family may now be in much pain over the loss of their son, he brought himself to his tragic end through a series of terrible choices. Roderick Scott had every right to protect himself; he did what he should have… and a jury of his peers agreed.

Oh, and Roderick Scott was a 42 year old black man about the size of an NFL linebacker. Christopher Cervini was a skinny, 17 year old white kid with a little bit of marijuana in his system. Scott was justified in the killing of the younger man not because of the crime that Cervini had committed, but because Scott rightfully feared for his own safety.

aclunaacpabsentThere was no “white uproar” over the shooting of a young white man at the hands of a black man with a “hero-complex.” The NAACP didn’t show up to argue that the shooter should be jailed, or that the Justice Department should pursue charges of civil rights violations against the man for killing Cervini. Jesse Jackson, Al Shartpon, and all of the other race hate baiters stayed home for the trial. The trial was treated as a tragic situation that a young man brought on himself by turning to violence.

Which is exactly how the George Zimmerman case should have been treated. The next time someone tells you, “What if…?” You can tell them it already happened, and the outcome was exactly the same… minus the racial tension.



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24 Jul 2013, 11:59 am

zer0netgain wrote:
http://lastresistance.com/2787/say-hello-to-roderick-scott-the-anti-george-zimmerman/

Quote:
Did you notice during the George Zimmerman trial how the media kept repeating the salacious question “What if Trayvon Martin had been white?” They acted as if this question was the perfect response to Zimmerman defenders. They pretended that this was a question without a “safe” answer, but in reality, the question had already been answered.

In April of 2009 Mr. Roderick Scott awoke at 3am to the sounds of three young men breaking into cars on his street. He called the police and went down to the street to make sure the young men did not flee before the police arrived. He shouted at the three to “freeze” and told them that the police were coming soon. The three boys stood before the big man obviously considering what they should do.

That’s when Christopher Cervini (17) rushed at Mr. Scott uttering “I’ll get you” or “I’ll get him.” Roderick Scott fired twice, killing the teenager. The trial that followed was again a case of prosecutorial overreach, as they tried to charge Mr. Scott with manslaughter. Fortunately for Mr. Scott, a jury of his peers agreed with him that he did only what was needed to protect himself.

Afterwards the prosecutor opined, “I just hope it’s not a message to this community… that you have the right to shoot an unarmed 17-year-old kid for breaking into a car.” The problem is that Mr. Scott did not shoot young Christopher Cervini for breaking into his car, but for attacking him. While the Cervini family may now be in much pain over the loss of their son, he brought himself to his tragic end through a series of terrible choices. Roderick Scott had every right to protect himself; he did what he should have… and a jury of his peers agreed.

Oh, and Roderick Scott was a 42 year old black man about the size of an NFL linebacker. Christopher Cervini was a skinny, 17 year old white kid with a little bit of marijuana in his system. Scott was justified in the killing of the younger man not because of the crime that Cervini had committed, but because Scott rightfully feared for his own safety.

aclunaacpabsentThere was no “white uproar” over the shooting of a young white man at the hands of a black man with a “hero-complex.” The NAACP didn’t show up to argue that the shooter should be jailed, or that the Justice Department should pursue charges of civil rights violations against the man for killing Cervini. Jesse Jackson, Al Shartpon, and all of the other race hate baiters stayed home for the trial. The trial was treated as a tragic situation that a young man brought on himself by turning to violence.

Which is exactly how the George Zimmerman case should have been treated. The next time someone tells you, “What if…?” You can tell them it already happened, and the outcome was exactly the same… minus the racial tension.


It's definitely an interesting counterpoint, not only because Mr. Scott is a black man but the incident took place in the 'progressive' utopia that is New York. The case for manslaughter against Mr. Scott seems a lot stronger than the one against Zimmerman to, the fact he got acquitted pretty much kills any entire argument of "what if it was a white kid".



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24 Jul 2013, 12:51 pm

Jacoby wrote:
We can never know if Trayvon reached for his gun or if he threatened to kill Zimmerman, we do know Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman beating his face in and that Trayvon had no injuries besides his fatal wound and his knuckles. Whatever Zimmerman did if anything at all to provoke that beating, Trayvon went way beyond just defending himself.


Those are the standards in your mind, not the law. Being injured is not the standard for initiating self-defense. If Zimmerman was still moving and Martin felt threat, he can reduce that threat and then take it to a jury. If a woman is jumped by a heavier man at night she won't have to show a scratch to justify the fear required to shoot him or cut his throat. Zimmerman, an adult, outweighed Martin and once physicality begins I'd say he has a pretty wide latitude to defend himself in the night.

We know that Zimmerman was eager to find Martin, we know he was deeply frustrated with "a**holes" and "f*****g punks" always getting away. We know someone on the phone says they heard Martin say "get off, get off". The trial just came down to reasonable doubt over the details not a rousing vindication of every sentence George ZImmerman ever strung together.



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24 Jul 2013, 1:39 pm

simon_says wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
We can never know if Trayvon reached for his gun or if he threatened to kill Zimmerman, we do know Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman beating his face in and that Trayvon had no injuries besides his fatal wound and his knuckles. Whatever Zimmerman did if anything at all to provoke that beating, Trayvon went way beyond just defending himself.


Those are the standards in your mind, not the law. Being injured is not the standard for initiating self-defense. If Zimmerman was still moving and Martin felt threat, he can reduce that threat and then take it to a jury. If a woman is jumped by a heavier man at night she won't have to show a scratch to justify the fear required to shoot him or cut his throat. Zimmerman, an adult, outweighed Martin and once physicality begins I'd say he has a pretty wide latitude to defend himself in the night.

We know that Zimmerman was eager to find Martin, we know he was deeply frustrated with "a**holes" and "f***ing punks" always getting away. We know someone on the phone says they heard Martin say "get off, get off". The trial just came down to reasonable doubt over the details not a rousing vindication of every sentence George ZImmerman ever strung together.


I doubt it would of even went to a jury, he'd take a plea deal since it seems pretty cut and dry to me. It doesn't seem like Zimmerman was fighting back, he was the one injured, pinned to the ground, and likely screaming for help. What was Trayvon defending himself from? What circumstances would justify someone to attack someone that way? Nothing Zimmerman did was illegal. Zimmerman might of been a 'creepy ass cracka' narc and pissed Trayvon off but that doesn't give him the right to attack him. You have to do a lot of mental gymnastics or just ignore facts to not fault Trayvon for starting the physical altercation. Does anybody honestly believe that Zimmerman grabbed Trayvon, flopped on the ground, and let him beat his head into the concrete so he could murder Trayvon and get away with it? That's just silly and not based in any reality. If Martin attacked Zimmerman, I can't see how anybody can fault what he did. What was Zimmerman suppose to do? He may of followed him, he might of even profiled him but it doesn't change the fact that all the evidence suggests that Trayvon was the aggressor in the altercation. If Zimmerman being heavier made him more capable of handling himself in the altercation with Martin, doesn't that suggest that Zimmerman wasn't the aggressor? As said a bunch of times in this thread, Martin had no injuries besides the fatal gun shot and busted knuckles. Zimmerman was on his back, his nose broken and back of head bleeding.

You have to do a lot of mental gymnastics to think of a scenario were Martin is justified in attacking Zimmerman the way he did that's still consistent with the evidence.



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24 Jul 2013, 1:45 pm

That rates an :lol: Nothing more. Repetition of old assertions that don't cover the full range of possibilities. You keep trying to twist an uncertainty into a certainty. Knock yourself out.



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24 Jul 2013, 1:53 pm

simon_says wrote:
That rates an :lol: Nothing more. Repetition of old assertions that don't cover the full range of possibilities. For whatever reason. Knock yourself out with it.


Just because there are other possible scenarios doesn't mean that they are all possible. I can't think of any realistic ones where Zimmerman is at fault for 2nd degree murder or even manslaughter considering the evidence we do have.