Do we still want muslims in our western nations?

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Yes - definitely. I wouldn't even worry about quoting me on it, ideas are worth far more than their vessels.

OddGoat, what I was addressing was your apparent contention that since some Muslims engage in violent acts against innocents (in contradiction to the suras, incidentally - they spell out who is and is not considered fair game, and specifically forbid warfare against women, the elderly, and children, as well as attacks on mosques), that therefore it must be part of Islamic doctrine, and someone who calls himself Muslim but doesn't commit terrorist acts must therefore not be a true Muslim.

That's definitely an example of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy...

No, that's not what I meant.

I was thinking of the seven conditions for Jihad, which I think is in the hadiths?

edit: I know why you think I meant that though, I referred to the fort hood thing thinking he was more of a muslim because he probably considered the conditions for jihad, saw them to be fulfilled and acted to defend muslim land.

Last edited by TheOddGoat on 08 Nov 2009, 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

No, that's not what I meant.

I meant the seven conditions for Jihad.

In any sufficiently large portion of any group of people, you're going to have major flakes making trouble as 'representatives' of the group at large. There's actually Muslims who like the US (though where those two are, I dunno...

I do believe that there are laws in place, or Constitutional case laws, that forbid a 'litmus test' based on religion for any government post. So you have to hire them, as long as they're qualified.

This guy is going down (be interesting to see if a headshrinker can present a sufficiently-engineered 'insanity defense'...who better to know the definition, but who better to be suspected?... Most Muslims just don't want to deal with the West, and I'm pretty sure many Westerners don't want to deal with the Islamic world. If it wasn't for Israel and Oil, we'd have managed it by now.

hmmm we'd need a solution! a... _best_ solution or.. let me find a better word...

OH LOL i couldnt help it

Can this go on, this American barbarism? Should we kick them out of the UN?

"If the UN decided to leave America, they would see our people waving it a fond farewell" - dang, I can't remember the guy's name, but he was up for UN ambassador under Bush...

A troll or simply a complete and utter idiot, who is unable to subject the drivel he hears through the mass media to the slightest of objective analysis. To the OP and those whom agree with him, you have me wondering, what it must be like living life in a virtual coma.

Was it John Bolton?

Quite possibly it could be a quote of the new york city traffic cops who cant get ambassadors to pay their tickets.

Hmmm....Carlofirst comes to mind...

I'm not sure about yall who don't much care for Muslims, but where i'm from, here in the good ol U S of A, our nation was founded as a nation of religious freedom. A place where you could practice your faith safely without persecution. And our laws and founding documents illustrate this to be true.

So, if you also happen to be American, and you think we should kick all them Muslims out of the country...pack up your own s**t and gtfo yourselves. You obviously don't wanna be here, find some other less barbaric civilization to live in.

I take this personal, my apologies if I'm too direct or offensive. But I didn't serve in the military to protect our freedoms for no reason. Religious freedom included.

You don't like how it is here, or don't like the principals for which our country stands? Get out, otherwise you can shove it.

~NS

Not offended in the least Narcissus, you understand what those ideals are

Military service gives you no additional rights or privileges over any other US citizen. And I would contest whether military service is a way of protecting our freedoms.


Love it or leave it, eh? Nope, that's not how it works. Part of the freedoms you claim to have defended is that we are allowed to disagree with how things are done here, or with the principles for which our country stands.

Your first response is ignorant. If the US had no military, we would have no country. We would have been invaded and occupied years ago. Er, rather, we wouldn't have even managed to become our own nation in the first place.

I'm all for disagreeing, in fact I love it. My attempt to use the attitude of the OP directed instead at the OP (not Muslims) seems to have gone over your head though. It's all good. I don't literally expect people with religious prejudges to leave the US, or especially desire them to. Actually, I'd be worried if they did all get together and go join some other community, because then they'd be even more unified, and probably do even more really stupid pointless acts of hate/fear.