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Followthereaper90
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12 Oct 2010, 2:37 pm

Tensu wrote:
I believe in the devil.

It is my understanding that the devil was, originally, and angel who's job it was to test humanity's faith, but fell after getting into an argument with God... aparently the Devil thought that we would never change and was disgusted with us, but God still believes in us even after everything we've done.

one of the prophets (I forget which) talks about the fall of satan as if it happened rather recently, where as most people seem to associate it with something very early so they can relate satan to the snake in Eden (I perfer the idea that the snake is a metaphor for paganism)
lucifer son of ligthbearer we are talking about same thing
quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes
-atheist

oh by the way there aint such thing as "hell" trasnlators
mistakenly took the Hebrew term sheol in verse 15 as "hell" (in Hebrew it is simply the place where the dead go, a metaphor for death, specifically burial


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TeaEarlGreyHot
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12 Oct 2010, 2:56 pm

Asp-Z wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Asp-Z wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Yeah... I'm not Christian.


What religion are you a member of then? Because all of them seem to promise some sort of happiness one way or another.


I'm not a member of a religion. I have spiritual beliefs, but do not subscribed to organized religion.


Fair enough, I guess. At least you're believing your own impossible stories instead of being brainwashed by other people's.


Who said anything about believing in impossible stories?


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TeaEarlGreyHot
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12 Oct 2010, 2:59 pm

wavefreak58 wrote:
Asp-Z wrote:

Fair enough, I guess. At least you're believing your own impossible stories instead of being brainwashed by other people's.


Does condescension come naturally to you or do you have to practice?


Meh... I've seen better. I think he needs more practice.


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sartresue
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12 Oct 2010, 6:31 pm

Speak of the devil topic

The Devil wrote:

Quote:
I do not believe that Corp900 is anything but a troll...


If anything, the devil is honest. :twisted: :P


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ruveyn
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16 Oct 2010, 8:31 am

I do not believe in a literal devil, but I do understand that human nature has a dark aspect which is often personified as the devil. Humans are capable of thinking dreadful thoughts and doing dreadful deeds.

ruveyn



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17 Oct 2010, 3:38 am

Basically, what Ambivalence and MrXxx said. Satan, in the Book of Job (supposed to be the oldest book in the Bible, so presumably reflecting an older stratum of belief) is God's 'counsel for the prosecution', if you like; his job is to prove that humans deserve God's wrath. Only later on does he actually tempt people.

The idea of angels having 'fallen' is a separate strand, found largely in the apocryphal Book of Enoch (which is later, from the last couple of centuries BCE), but mentioned in that passage in Genesis where the 'sons of God' come down and marry the 'daughters of men', resulting in giant hybrid children. Those angels were seen as teaching humans 'evil' arts (like metalwork, writing, herbal medicine and the use of eyeshadow!), and were punished by God; various names are given (the leader was Azazel, who later had the 'scapegoat' of Jewish ritual dedicated to him), but Satan isn't among them. The 'bright morning star' passage in Isaiah 14 probably refers to one of several possible Mesopotamian kings, and was only later identified with Satan.

I think the idea of Satan is a tricky one. Either you accept that, as in Job, Satan is one of God's personal staff, therefore under God's direction; or that he's rebelled, but God can't or won't deal with him. It strikes me as rather as if you worked for a company where the boss let a renegade executive go round scamming various subordinate employees into doing the wrong thing, and rather than deal with him, the boss fires them. Basically, he appears to be a device to either let people themselves off the hook for the bad stuff they do, or to let God off the hook for the evil in the world. The question you have to ask is: in a perfect heaven, what could have made Lucifer want to rebel?


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17 Oct 2010, 5:44 am

When the Jews got the boot from the Holy Land and were taken to Persia they absorbed a lot of Zoroastrianism and other beliefs.

Enter "The Devil" and the great war between good and evil at the end of time.

That is pure Zoroastrianism.

The names of the angels and demons came from there too.