Republicans Kind of Suck...

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I'm not claiming taxation is inherently wrong, but how taxation occurs can be wrong. If it robs the poor and make it impossible to get by, then that is wrong. If it punishes married couples for being married, that is wrong. If it takes enough away from business owners that they are discouraged from increasing the size of their operation and providing more jobs, that is also wrong. You may complain that rich people are selfish and waste money on themselves and it would be nice if they shared it, however all people are greedy and selfish and spend their money the way they want to. If you pass laws so that the money one earns they cannot use, they might as well not bother to earn it in the first place since it is useless to them.

And it's a fundamental problem with governments around the world. Perhaps part of the problem is they realise they can't please everybody, and so resort to pleasing themselves.

I have never complained that rich people are selfish and waste money, though I suspect that may be true of a decent proportion of the 'idle rich'. Some people are more greedy than others, and - in my view - therein lies a genuine problem.

Greed is actually part of the reason why capitalism has been able to work, even in more elementary forms, longer than the more altruistic-sounding socialism. When people are able to amass wealth, own property, and buy and sell goods they are more apt to want to use them. Russia did last for nearly a century under socialism, but it required a strong sense of nationalism to be instilled from the schools and a secret police force to eliminate complainers.

i'm glad you agree that not all taxation is wrong. small business owners in this country get the short end of the stick as far as taxes go. if i were president O, i would favor exempting all small businesses from the progressive tax so long as they hire a certain amount of people or invest in their communities in some way. small businesses [chamber of commerce warhorse factoid] of fewer than 50 employees provide roughly 90% of american jobs, so tax policy needs to remember this group. it is not. small businesses are getting the mean green weenie here, while large corporations skate by. people need to understand that the invisible corporate elites are the ones pulling the strings on all the rest of us underneath them, getting us to fight each other over false issues to keep our eyes off of the fact that multinational corporations are getting a gravy train while the rest of us are just licking the bowl afterwards.
i don't begrudge rich folk their riches, so long as they didn't gyp me in the process, ala madoff and his ilk. but i do have a quarrel with upper-middle-class tea partiers who believe that social security and medicare is their right but simultaneously oppose being taxed to pay for those things.
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"trickle down" is a myth perpetuated by folk who pee on your leg then tell you it's only raining.

Small businesses, such as sole proprietorships and partnerships do have less taxes than corporations. Limited Liability partnerships and corporations also have less taxes then corporations already. I would like to start a sole proprietorship at some time in the near future, so hopefully the laws haven't changed too much from when Bush was in office.

What I don't understand is why the numbers of people who would be up s**t creek without a paddle if not for the Obama legislation that Republicans and Tea Partiers fervently opposed aren't making more noise. The selfishness and pig-headed denseness of the loud-mouthed majorities who simply oppose everything Obama does is appalling. The people who have no right to be angry are always the loudest while the people who should be angry are silent. I just don't get it. I just hate the whole damn human race.

I think the problem is that with many of Obama's policies, you really have to be paying attention to know what's going on. His moves are somewhat subtle and the dems themselves don't advertise their own successes. In my insurance case, for example, I had a budget to plan and was proactive in finding out how much it was gonna cost and why. Many people just automatically enroll in COBRA after employment separation, without learning the details. They simply get a relatively affordable bill in the mail and probably have no idea that Obama's administration is the reason that they can afford it. No where on our bill does it say anything about the government picking up a portion of the plan.

Same with the tax cuts. Everyone just got a little extra in their checks each week and some probably didn't even notice. The dems really need to work on public perception. It's like a company coming out with a new and improved version of a product without any advertising whatsoever. They need a better salesman.

the whole human race? why not just the meanie american banana republic lovers?

Income taxes are the best kinds for Joe Six Pack because pay is based on after-tax income. If income taxes are cut, then wages will be adjusted down. If income taxes are increased, wages will be adjusted up. The only people who pay for income taxes in the end are businesses and the rich.

That makes zero sense.

It makes complete sense. The market for workers leads to wages based on cost of living and taxes - after tax income and what that income will buy. This is why people are paid more in New York City let's say than in Kalamazoo. Interesting that with the Bush tax cut, wages for people had the smallest increase of any decade. Bosses decided, "Hey, all you workers of mine got your raise already with that tax cut, so there's no need for me to give you one to adjust to cost of living, so here you go, I pocket it all".

I guess people are just so used to thinking that the rich always pass all taxes down below they actually start to believe it.

Income taxes are seen as bad for competitiveness - this is because business knows that they'll absorb these taxes. Worse however in the USA is the crazy medical insurance system... that's murder.

literally. megaphone this^

They aren't making noise because they aren't getting any benefit from Porkulus Maximus. If anyone stood to gain from Porkulus Maximus, it would have been my dad. He is a cement mixer driver, so he is one of the first to benefit financially from infrastructure projects. He still hasn't seen a dime of that money spent on anything. He might have a little bit better opinion of Porkulus Maximus if the state jobs stopped and the federal money started paying for projects, but by the time that happens the economy will probably gain steam on it's own, and private jobs will pick up and the federal spending won't have been necessary.

Last edited by John_Browning on 31 Oct 2010, 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Income taxes increase the price of labour - this is what Michael Hudson tells people when he encourages the use of the Land Value Tax... but as far as your Joe Six Pack is concerned, it's a great tax because in the end business absorbs it, so cutting his income taxes will not help him. The only argument to Joe Six Pack against income tax is to say that it's bad for business for such taxes to be too high. However, the crazy health insurance system is also bad for business and crumbling infrastructure is also bad for business and if taxes of all kinds are too low then that's what will happen.

It's clear really when you see who leads the charge for reducing income tax - business and the wealthy. They aren't calling for cuts in sales tax or any of that.

Out of $787 billion of stimulus about $350 billion was tax cuts. Much of the rest was funds to keep state governments afloat. Other portions of this was unemployment insurance. It was more an exercise in treading water than in stimulus, thank you very much Rahm "One trillion dollars is scary" Emanuel...

You forget that since income tax increases the price of labor, it also means fewer people can be hired by a given company.