How strong is the evidence that Jesus existed?

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Awesomelyglorious
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01 Dec 2011, 8:40 pm

donnie_darko wrote:
How come there's no evidence for the Massacre of the Innocents then? Maybe it was such a small event, they didn't bother to record it, relative to his other cruel acts?

That's a common claim about the massacre of the innocents. The counter-point is that this event is not reported by other Gospels, historians, or Josephus(who didn't like Herod and pulled up all sorts of misdeeds by Herod, of which this could easily make the list)



donnie_darko
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01 Dec 2011, 8:43 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
How come there's no evidence for the Massacre of the Innocents then? Maybe it was such a small event, they didn't bother to record it, relative to his other cruel acts?

That's a common claim about the massacre of the innocents. The counter-point is that this event is not reported by other Gospels, historians, or Josephus(who didn't like Herod and pulled up all sorts of misdeeds by Herod, of which this could easily make the list)


Another line in the Bible implies Jesus was born during the Census of Quirinius which was in 6 AD, way after Herod died. Though it could be read as meaning the census before Quirinius, though I don't know why the historian wouldn't just say what census it was exactly, unless he didnt know the name off hand.



Awesomelyglorious
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01 Dec 2011, 9:31 pm

donnie_darko wrote:
Another line in the Bible implies Jesus was born during the Census of Quirinius which was in 6 AD, way after Herod died. Though it could be read as meaning the census before Quirinius, though I don't know why the historian wouldn't just say what census it was exactly, unless he didnt know the name off hand.

Yeah, the census is disputed on it's historicity as well. Especially since some details of the matter really don't make sense in some of the stories, such as requiring the Jesus family to go back to the ancestral home, requiring them to stay in a manger.



blunnet
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01 Dec 2011, 11:23 pm

NineTailedFox wrote:
Wikipedia, huh. That reminds me, why didn't they include the adventures of Baby Jesus in the Bible?

Embarrassment.



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02 Dec 2011, 12:44 am

blunnet wrote:
NineTailedFox wrote:
Wikipedia, huh. That reminds me, why didn't they include the adventures of Baby Jesus in the Bible?

Embarrassment.


There is an apocraphyl book left out of the Bible:( I believe its the Book of Thomas), all about his childhood.

He was a real Dennis the Menace according to the book.

He throw a playmate off the roof causing the playmate's death, but then brought the playmate back to life.

Gradually he learned to use his powers for good.

His carpenter dad cut a board too short by mistake, but the child Jesus magically stretched it longer.

Quite a story.

But for some reason they left it on the cutting room floor when they choose which gospels to leave in the canon and which leave out.



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02 Dec 2011, 1:00 am

I feel that it is entirely likely that Jesus existed and happened to live the exact same life as Krishna, Horus, Zoroaster, Mithras, Attis, Dionysus and Prometheus.

Also, I find it unlikely that these aspects of Sun God cult worship found in many pagan pantheons had anything to do with jesus:


- The sun "dies" for three days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops in its
movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes
its movement north.
- In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin."
- The sun is the "Light of the World."
- The sun "cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him."
- The sun rising in the morning is the "Savior of mankind," as well as the "healer" or
"savior" during the day.
- The sun wears a corona, "crown of thorns" or halo.191
- The sun "walks on water," describing its reflection.
- The sun's "followers," "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass annually.
- The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High"; thus, "he" begins "his Father's work" at "age"
- The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30°; hence, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30


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Robdemanc
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02 Dec 2011, 5:09 am

Burnbridge wrote:
I feel that it is entirely likely that Jesus existed and happened to live the exact same life as Krishna, Horus, Zoroaster, Mithras, Attis, Dionysus and Prometheus.

Also, I find it unlikely that these aspects of Sun God cult worship found in many pagan pantheons had anything to do with jesus:


- The sun "dies" for three days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops in its
movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes
its movement north.
- In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin."
- The sun is the "Light of the World."
- The sun "cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him."
- The sun rising in the morning is the "Savior of mankind," as well as the "healer" or
"savior" during the day.
- The sun wears a corona, "crown of thorns" or halo.191
- The sun "walks on water," describing its reflection.
- The sun's "followers," "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass annually.
- The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High"; thus, "he" begins "his Father's work" at "age"
- The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30°; hence, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30


Why do you find it unlikely that these concepts have nothing to do with Jesus?



MCalavera
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02 Dec 2011, 9:21 pm

So to all the mythicists out there, let me get this straight:

You think that the Messiah/Christ that Paul and the Apostles preached as a recently historical figure who died and was supposedly resurrected was purely mythological the whole time ... without evidence that anyone doubted his existence at the time while him being resurrected and being a Messiah was questioned (as one can see in Paul's Epistles)?

What about Nazareth itself? Why would these original Messiah "myth-makers" make up Nazareth as the town for their Messiah when they could've easily just stuck to Bethlehem (like "Matthew" and "Luke" did)?

Why would they have Jesus be baptized by any human?

Why would they have their Messiah fail to do miracles in one town?

Why would they have the Messiah crucified and, thus, fail?

Not saying the evidence for Jesus' existence is so powerfully strong, but compared to mythicism, historicism makes more sense and is more reasonable.



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02 Dec 2011, 9:27 pm

Robdemanc wrote:
Burnbridge wrote:
I feel that it is entirely likely that Jesus existed and happened to live the exact same life as Krishna, Horus, Zoroaster, Mithras, Attis, Dionysus and Prometheus.

Also, I find it unlikely that these aspects of Sun God cult worship found in many pagan pantheons had anything to do with jesus:


- The sun "dies" for three days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops in its
movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes
its movement north.
- In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin."
- The sun is the "Light of the World."
- The sun "cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him."
- The sun rising in the morning is the "Savior of mankind," as well as the "healer" or
"savior" during the day.
- The sun wears a corona, "crown of thorns" or halo.191
- The sun "walks on water," describing its reflection.
- The sun's "followers," "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass annually.
- The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High"; thus, "he" begins "his Father's work" at "age"
- The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30°; hence, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30


Why do you find it unlikely that these concepts have nothing to do with Jesus?


Because of lack of evidence whatsoever for Jesus being the Sun.

What you listed is not evidence but just claims that you managed to find that matches something Jesus did or was while ignoring all the differences in the world between Jesus and the Sun.

Tell me, was the Sun ever crucified? Was the Sun ever born of a virgin?

Is what you even listed above based on scientific evidence? Or are you believing everything Acharya S spoonfeeds you?



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02 Dec 2011, 9:37 pm

MCalavera wrote:
So to all the mythicists out there, let me get this straight:

You think that the Messiah/Christ that Paul and the Apostles preached as a recently historical figure who died and was supposedly resurrected was purely mythological the whole time ... without evidence that anyone doubted his existence at the time while him being resurrected and being a Messiah was questioned (as one can see in Paul's Epistles)?

What about Nazareth itself? Why would these original Messiah "myth-makers" make up Nazareth as the town for their Messiah when they could've easily just stuck to Bethlehem (like "Matthew" and "Luke" did)?

Why would they have Jesus be baptized by any human?

Why would they have their Messiah fail to do miracles in one town?

Why would they have the Messiah crucified and, thus, fail?

Not saying the evidence for Jesus' existence is so powerfully strong, but compared to mythicism, historicism makes more sense and is more reasonable.


One of the most reasonable views on the historicity of Jesus:

Bansen Burner wrote:
Whether or not the gospel of Mark holds priority over the other synoptics is ultimately of little value to my overall view. Where Doherty may be regarded as a "mythicist," I can be regarded as a "legendist" - I think it's clearly the case that the stories we read in the gospels and the book of Acts are the product of legendary developments, regardless of whether or not Mark came first, regardless of whether or not there was ultimately a human being named Jesus which initially inspired sacred stories messianic heroism.


http://bahnsenburner.blogspot.com/2008/ ... harge.html


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02 Dec 2011, 9:57 pm

The first and most major thing I would point to for the historical existence of Jesus is the sheer degree of the explosion of the Christian faith throughout the world, beginning in the generation and areas that would have remembered whether such a man existed. Often, great myths about individuals really start taking off generations after he lived, so that there's nothing in living memory to contradict such legends. Therefore, had Jesus not actually existed, Christianity and the Gospel message of the religion's founders would have ended with one word repeatedly echoed throughout Israel: "Who?"

A man that does not exist does not move his disciples to choose, when forced into the choice, their own painful deaths over simple denial. And, furthermore, the very threat of death for not denying Jesus' resurrection shows Jesus existed, this way: If Jesus never existed, the disciples' claims of his resurrection would not have merited any attention at all, and would have been dismissed for the madmen such a claim would have made them. Men's claims of a Nazarene whom no Nazarene village had ever even heard of would not be greeted with death threats.

But I can see why people who reject Jesus' claims of being God, and of all mankind needing His forgiveness on pain of eternal death, wouldn't want Him even to have existed as a man, because the evidence of what this historical man said and did is compelling to belief in everything He said. And that is a scary thought for unbelievers.


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Last edited by Ragtime on 02 Dec 2011, 10:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.

MCalavera
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02 Dec 2011, 10:00 pm

Ragtime wrote:
The first and most major thing I would point to for the historical existence of Jesus is the sheer degree of the explosion of the Christian faith throughout the world, beginning in the generation that would have remembered whether such a man existed. Often, great myths about individuals really start taking off generations after he lived, so that there's nothing in living memory to contradict such legends. Therefore, had Jesus not, the Gospel message of the religion's founders would have ended with one word repeatedly echoed throughout Israel: "Who?" A man that does not exist does not move his disciples to choose, when forced into the choice, their own painful deaths over simple denial. And, furthermore, the very threat of death for not denying Jesus' resurrection shows Jesus existed: If Jesus never existed, the disciples' claims of his resurrection would not have merited any attention at all, and would have been dismissed for the madmen such would have made them. Madmens' claims of a Nazarene whom no Nazarene village had ever heard of would not be greeted with death threats.


Ever heard of mass delusions triggered by cleverly-made cults?

Quote:
But I can see why people who reject Jesus' claims of being God, and of all mankind needing His forgiveness on pain of eternal death, wouldn't want Him even to have existed as a man, because the evidence of what this historical man said and did is compelling to belief in everything He said. And that is a scary thought for unbelievers.


Or more like it's all nonsense, which is why many honest and sincere people don't believe in him and his deeds.



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02 Dec 2011, 10:02 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
So to all the mythicists out there, let me get this straight:

You think that the Messiah/Christ that Paul and the Apostles preached as a recently historical figure who died and was supposedly resurrected was purely mythological the whole time ... without evidence that anyone doubted his existence at the time while him being resurrected and being a Messiah was questioned (as one can see in Paul's Epistles)?

What about Nazareth itself? Why would these original Messiah "myth-makers" make up Nazareth as the town for their Messiah when they could've easily just stuck to Bethlehem (like "Matthew" and "Luke" did)?

Why would they have Jesus be baptized by any human?

Why would they have their Messiah fail to do miracles in one town?

Why would they have the Messiah crucified and, thus, fail?

Not saying the evidence for Jesus' existence is so powerfully strong, but compared to mythicism, historicism makes more sense and is more reasonable.


One of the most reasonable views on the historicity of Jesus:

Bansen Burner wrote:
Whether or not the gospel of Mark holds priority over the other synoptics is ultimately of little value to my overall view. Where Doherty may be regarded as a "mythicist," I can be regarded as a "legendist" - I think it's clearly the case that the stories we read in the gospels and the book of Acts are the product of legendary developments, regardless of whether or not Mark came first, regardless of whether or not there was ultimately a human being named Jesus which initially inspired sacred stories messianic heroism.


http://bahnsenburner.blogspot.com/2008/ ... harge.html


I think it matters where these stories came from if we want to find out for sure that Jesus existed.



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02 Dec 2011, 10:07 pm

I think Jesus was kind of like King Arthur, or Merlin. Loosely based on a real person, but wrapped in myth and inaccuracy to the point that we might as well be talking about a fictional person.



MCalavera
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02 Dec 2011, 10:21 pm

donnie_darko wrote:
I think Jesus was kind of like King Arthur, or Merlin. Loosely based on a real person, but wrapped in myth and inaccuracy to the point that we might as well be talking about a fictional person.


Yeah, but you make it sound like everything said about him in the Bible is so historically insignificant when in fact, it does matter (for example) why they would have Jesus their awaited Messiah be from Nazareth and be crucified.

I think he was quite significant for the early Christians who based their cult on him being the resurrected Messiah.



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02 Dec 2011, 10:43 pm

MCalavera wrote:

Yeah, but you make it sound like everything said about him in the Bible is so historically insignificant when in fact, it does matter (for example) why they would have Jesus their awaited Messiah be from Nazareth and be crucified.

I think he was quite significant for the early Christians who based their cult on him being the resurrected Messiah.


Well I think Jesus was based on a real person, but there were all these tall tales about him. Or he was an alien...