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In a socialist society everyone is equal

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Oodain
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26 Dec 2011, 12:01 pm

i think people are confusing the context of equality,

equality doesnt need to mean equal outcome, only equal beginnings, of course there are things far beyond any governments control but as far as possible.


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26 Dec 2011, 12:05 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
snapcap wrote:
Everyone equal in any type of governement or economy?

:lol:


that is why there cannot be a government to have class equality.
And no one else is going to fill the power vacuum? You're going to have to do better than just raving and using vague phrases if you want to tell us how this is all supposed to work.


why should there be a power vacuum?.......and considering there is not a system in existance that fits my description, I can't quite say how it would work and include all the details. I am still working on that part, not that I imagine I will ever be in a position to actually set up a new system but I like to think about better systems.

I don't feel I was raving, just questioning things and expressing my opinion on the matter.


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Tequila
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26 Dec 2011, 12:07 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
why should there be a power vacuum?


Because there is always someone who wants power over others. Central to human nature. If you can't see that then there's not a lot of point in discussing this with you.

Your stateless society idea won't cover for that idea. Look at Somalia. Or the Taliban.



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26 Dec 2011, 12:07 pm

Tequila wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
And no one else is going to fill the power vacuum?


Which is what I've been saying. You'll inevitably end up with a bunch of very nasty people who will fight their way to the top who will inflict various methods of violence and repression in order to keep the populace in line.


Yes sadly that is usually exactly what happens....so i guess the next step would be trying to find ways to prevent it, maybe its impossible maybe its not.........I don't really know.


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androbot2084
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26 Dec 2011, 12:08 pm

Capitalist Bosses want the power to fire and to blackball workers.



Sweetleaf
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26 Dec 2011, 12:10 pm

Tequila wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
why should there be a power vacuum?


Because there is always someone who wants power over others. Central to human nature. If you can't see that then there's not a lot of point in discussing this with you.

Your stateless society idea won't cover for that idea. Look at Somalia. Or the Taliban.



So wait all humans want power over others? what the hell am I then?.......are you sure its human nature? maybe the idea that we should strive to have more power and wealth then others was conditioned and has nothing to do with human nature. I don't see why people have to get so hostile just because I have an unconventional way of veiwing things......yes I am challening that maybe its not human nature......if that means its not worth being discussed with me fine.........I can leave this forum if people prefer I guess.

Not quite related but now i understand why in the 60's some people wanted to put LSD in the water. lol


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snapcap
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26 Dec 2011, 12:13 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
snapcap wrote:
Everyone equal in any type of governement or economy?

:lol:


that is why there cannot be a government to have class equality.


While I don't think any system will lead to absolute equality, I do think that government has the power to decrease the inequalities, which is really what they should be doing, especially in America.



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26 Dec 2011, 12:17 pm

snapcap wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
snapcap wrote:
Everyone equal in any type of governement or economy?

:lol:


that is why there cannot be a government to have class equality.


While I don't think any system will lead to absolute equality, I do think that government has the power to decrease the inequalities, which is really what they should be doing, especially in America.


If that is what the government actually did, maybe I would have a better opinion of them....but it seems more about power and wealth, they seem more intrested in doing whatever corporate america wants rather then looking out for the citizens. It seems like every government has failed in history because it always ends up being all about wealth and power. So that is why I am trying to think of how a society without a government could maybe work.


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Tequila
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26 Dec 2011, 12:17 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
So wait all humans want power over others? what the hell am I then?l


I never said that. If you can't understand that there are enough people in this world that want ultimate power over others - it doesn't really matter how they came to be like this at this stage - then I'm sorry, I can't help you. There are enough reasons alone for people to want to be in power.

Would you rather have the life of an average starving North Korean or the (relative) extreme wealth of someone connected to the ruling élite? We'll ignore the moral questions around this as they aren't relevant.



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26 Dec 2011, 12:20 pm

People living in a capitalist society are taught that the lust for power and wealth are all part of human nature because you are considered a traitor for believing otherwise.



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26 Dec 2011, 12:21 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
[

If that is what the government actually did, maybe I would have a better opinion of them....but it seems more about power and wealth, they seem more intrested in doing whatever corporate america wants rather then looking out for the citizens. It seems like every government has failed in history because it always ends up being all about wealth and power. So that is why I am trying to think of how a society without a government could maybe work.


All governments have one major imperative. To increase their scope and power. It is true from dictatorships to democracies.

ruveyn



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26 Dec 2011, 12:22 pm

Tequila wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
So wait all humans want power over others? what the hell am I then?l


I never said that. If you can't understand that there are enough people in this world that want ultimate power over others - it doesn't really matter how they came to be like this at this stage - then I'm sorry, I can't help you. There are enough reasons alone for people to want to be in power.

Would you rather have the life of an average starving North Korean or someone connected to the ruling élite? We'll ignore the moral questions around this as they aren't relevant.


Oh well I totally get that there are enough people in the world that want power over others, that is actually one of the things I don't like about the world. I just have to question if that is true human nature or if its something that has been conditioned into humans....because its not as though pursuing wealth and power are nessisary for survival.....well actual survival it has gotten to the point where if you want to survive in this society it easier if thats what you want to pursue.

Also I would not want to be either of those, what is wrong with what I am right now? a nearly broke 22 year old american loser with no garantee of finding a way to make income to live on. I guess i just cannot picture myself as a Korean as I don't have any asian heritage...so I'll have to settle for poor american citizen rather then poor korean citizen. But to try and answer the point of the question I'd rather starve then join any ruling elite.


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Tequila
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26 Dec 2011, 12:22 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
People living in a capitalist society are taught that the lust for power and wealth are all part of human nature because you are considered a traitor for believing otherwise.


Explain most of these (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_modern_dictators), many of whom didn't live in capitalistic societies and were in fact socialists and/or communists.



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26 Dec 2011, 12:23 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
[

If that is what the government actually did, maybe I would have a better opinion of them....but it seems more about power and wealth, they seem more intrested in doing whatever corporate america wants rather then looking out for the citizens. It seems like every government has failed in history because it always ends up being all about wealth and power. So that is why I am trying to think of how a society without a government could maybe work.


All governments have one major imperative. To increase their scope and power. It is true from dictatorships to democracies.

ruveyn


Yeah why do you think I like the idea of a governmentless society.


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Tequila
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26 Dec 2011, 12:24 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
I'd rather starve then join any ruling elite.


I'm not sure you'd say that if you actually lived in that situation and you were offered the possibility of food and a reasonable chance of survival. By joining the ruling elite you might help to protect your family as well, depending on what the elite was like.



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26 Dec 2011, 12:25 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
People living in a capitalist society are taught that the lust for power and wealth are all part of human nature because you are considered a traitor for believing otherwise.


Hmm don't quite see what I am betraying by beliving this lust for power and wealth is conditioned and not natural....but yeah it kinda seems that's how your viewed if you want something else from life.


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