Free-will and Atheism
techstepgenr8tion
Veteran
Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 24,682
Location: 28th Path of Tzaddi
19 Feb 2012, 11:48 pm
Ria1989 wrote:
But I still come back to the most obvious question, why are the people most in tune with this god creature (priests), the most evil people known? How can they rip and tear out the soul of young boy or girl and feel no remorse? Why do they use their religion to exempt them from their wrong-doing?
In the specifically Catholic example that you bring up (which I was raised and confirmed - thankfully never Athenian tutored), the church had a particular saint in history who gave everything they had to the church to take up celibacy with their priesthood. That particular saint had a lot of money and from then on the church liked the notion of all priests giving up what they had (and wife and kids) to God. Try straining that now through the lens of a culture where fewer believe and it still takes a permanently unmarried man to be a priest. You start getting a more and more awkward pool of candidates as the pool shrinks. Especially as religion shrinks I think the Vatican overlooked it for similar reasons to why Joe Paterno overlooked Jerry Sandusky (a different but parallel sandal in substance).
As for pastors though, I know lots of those - even one or two who are active in teaching martial arts - and they seem to be more often guys who are just out there, living life to the fullest, physically active and intrepid, and they seem to find God as a great motivational source. In that sense it seems like they are quite sincere in their own belief and since a belief in God doesn't do any violence to their ability to be athletic or to socially network they essentially are able to sort of be those 'perfect people' through the habits it lends them.
_________________
The loneliest part of life: it's not just that no one is on your cloud, few can even see your cloud.
19 Feb 2012, 11:52 pm
Vigilans wrote:
Prove it, please [cults]. Levayan satanism is just ethical egoism with a bunch of extra nonsensical metaphor.
Well that's what I'm saying. Would any sensible atheist join Levayan Satanism? Not all atheists are sensible.
There's nothing wrong with religion either. There's several thousand years of sensible social experience in religion.
20 Feb 2012, 12:08 am
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Ria1989 wrote:
But I still come back to the most obvious question, why are the people most in tune with this god creature (priests), the most evil people known? How can they rip and tear out the soul of young boy or girl and feel no remorse? Why do they use their religion to exempt them from their wrong-doing?
In the specifically Catholic example that you bring up (which I was raised and confirmed - thankfully never Athenian tutored), the church had a particular saint in history who gave everything they had to the church to take up celibacy with their priesthood. That particular saint had a lot of money and from then on the church liked the notion of all priests giving up what they had (and wife and kids) to God. Try straining that now through the lens of a culture where fewer believe and it still takes a permanently unmarried man to be a priest. You start getting a more and more awkward pool of candidates as the pool shrinks. Especially as religion shrinks I think the Vatican overlooked it for similar reasons to why Joe Paterno overlooked Jerry Sandusky (a different but parallel sandal in substance).
As for pastors though, I know lots of those - even one or two who are active in teaching martial arts - and they seem to be more often guys who are just out there, living life to the fullest, physically active and intrepid, and they seem to find God as a great motivational source. In that sense it seems like they are quite sincere in their own belief and since a belief in God doesn't do any violence to their ability to be athletic or to socially network they essentially are able to sort of be those 'perfect people' through the habits it lends them.
Correct me if I'm wrong. If the pedophiles hypothetically are not going to hell, when will they suffer for what they did to others? To me it's as if hell and heaven are set states that are irreversible. When is there time to learn from they've done wrong?
I've also read in studies that mens' brains are wired to be attracted to certain females and males. What I mean by certain females and males is the age. Some men are physiologically aroused to a picture of female in her late thirties. Other men are physiologically aroused to twelve year old females. If god made these men, why is there a difference between mens biological make-up that could potentially make them a bad person? For example, bonobos are considered sexual beings, whereas chimps are considered more aggressive. If a bonobo were to try and fornicate with a chimp, would that bonobo go to hell? It is accepted in his species to mate to resolve and prevent war. The bonobo would not see it as harming, though the chimp wouldn't believe in it.
_________________
Ummmm....
20 Feb 2012, 12:11 am
AudaciousLarue wrote:
Hello everybody, I'm new to this forum and would like to first of all start off with something that has bothered me for around two years. Here goes nothing.
My parents believe that I am going to Hell. Period, no questions asked as to why I am destined to go to Hell, beyond the fact that I have decided to choose not to believe in God and apparently that means my soul is in peril.
My journey down towards atheism began around a year or two ago(9th or 10th grade in high school). I was(and am) really big into philosophy.
I read more of course, and had at that point totally questioned the existence of a higher power. My parents tried to limit my philosophy intake, but didn't based on the assumption that free-thinking is good(and they've mostly given up on trying to control my beliefs).
We would get into bitter fights over religion, with my parents always concluding that to have purpose in life one must believe that a higher being is watching over us, every day.
I tried refuted this, arguing that one can still live life to the fullest, even more so without the fear of eternal damnation hanging over one's head. The fear of hell is not necessary to have a solid moral compass.
But, I feel guilty. My parents pray for me a lot, because they really do worry about my soul. And I seem to have chosen my path, and i don't see how I can go back. I just cannot believe in God.
They want me to become a born-again Christian "when I'm ready" but I feel right now that I just can't do it.
Is questioning everything really a "sin?" Is having free will putting you at odds with God, whom I really sometimes feel does exist, yet at the same time don't?
The biggest problem I have is this: How do my parents KNOW I will go to Hell, as if they are God?
They also think that I will overtime take up bad morals, even though right now they don't believe I have them yet. They argue that atheism=bad morals.
What do you think?
Anyways, I'd like to hear your opinions.
My parents believe that I am going to Hell. Period, no questions asked as to why I am destined to go to Hell, beyond the fact that I have decided to choose not to believe in God and apparently that means my soul is in peril.
My journey down towards atheism began around a year or two ago(9th or 10th grade in high school). I was(and am) really big into philosophy.
I read more of course, and had at that point totally questioned the existence of a higher power. My parents tried to limit my philosophy intake, but didn't based on the assumption that free-thinking is good(and they've mostly given up on trying to control my beliefs).
We would get into bitter fights over religion, with my parents always concluding that to have purpose in life one must believe that a higher being is watching over us, every day.
I tried refuted this, arguing that one can still live life to the fullest, even more so without the fear of eternal damnation hanging over one's head. The fear of hell is not necessary to have a solid moral compass.
But, I feel guilty. My parents pray for me a lot, because they really do worry about my soul. And I seem to have chosen my path, and i don't see how I can go back. I just cannot believe in God.
They want me to become a born-again Christian "when I'm ready" but I feel right now that I just can't do it.
Is questioning everything really a "sin?" Is having free will putting you at odds with God, whom I really sometimes feel does exist, yet at the same time don't?
The biggest problem I have is this: How do my parents KNOW I will go to Hell, as if they are God?
They also think that I will overtime take up bad morals, even though right now they don't believe I have them yet. They argue that atheism=bad morals.
What do you think?
Anyways, I'd like to hear your opinions.
Your prejudicial parents scare the sh*t out of me and once again remind me of the phrase "American Taliban".
20 Feb 2012, 12:46 am
RonP wrote:
I am not a believer. However, agreeing with your parents wishes aren't always bad, even if you have to damn yourself with a lie to them.
In the end we all need to keep our parents happy and treat them with respect. Even when they are wrong.
In the end we all need to keep our parents happy and treat them with respect. Even when they are wrong.
I'm sorry RonP (any connection to Ron Paul?), but disrespecting your parents by lying to them about what you believe so they can go on living a deluded, bigotry-laced, life is wrong beyond all measure. Enabling bigotry is generally the wrong thing to do.
Oodain
Veteran
Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,022
Location: in my own little tamarillo jungle,
20 Feb 2012, 1:26 am
Master_Pedant wrote:
RonP wrote:
I am not a believer. However, agreeing with your parents wishes aren't always bad, even if you have to damn yourself with a lie to them.
In the end we all need to keep our parents happy and treat them with respect. Even when they are wrong.
In the end we all need to keep our parents happy and treat them with respect. Even when they are wrong.
I'm sorry RonP (any connection to Ron Paul?), but disrespecting your parents by lying to them about what you believe so they can go on living a deluded, bigotry-laced, life is wrong beyond all measure. Enabling bigotry is generally the wrong thing to do.
QFT
_________________
//through chaos comes complexity//
the scent of the tamarillo is pungent and powerfull,
woe be to the nose who nears it.
20 Feb 2012, 5:04 am
Well, underlying the critics that I can see about atheism is the idea of selfishness. This is a misunderstanding of atheism.
Atheism does not consist in denying the importance of other people, but in denying that we should take care of others just because we are given the order by some god.
Why on earth do you need a book to consider being friendly to other people ?
When talking about rules, some people, which are afraid of atheism, say that you may do negative or dangerous things just because you are an atheist. Again, it is a misunderstanding of atheism.
Atheism consists in putting into questions religious attitudes, that's all. For example, about worshipping a god, you can point out that you think there is no god to worship, that there are no particular consequences when not doing it, that you are mostly convincing yourself or other people of something when you pray, so you can use other methods like NLP, hypnotism, suggestion, etc. methods that are used by religious people, consciously or inconsciously. In other word, if you want to be successful or to have friends, you can use psychological methods to make it happen. If you want to be lucky in your life, just take opportunities, etc.
If a believer tell you that you must beware of cars because it can be dangerous, well if you're an atheist, you can agree with him without agreeing about god, because cars are real objects, and there can obviously be negative consequences with these. Someone once told me that we would build a wall in a wrong way because we do not follow common wisdom about it. There can be common wisdom that has nothing to do with religion. You will not do the contrary of every rule you ever heard because you are an atheist. This is absurd.
Atheism is more about sorting out what is relevent (material, social, psychological) and what is not (arbitrary beliefs in non material objects).
techstepgenr8tion
Veteran
Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 24,682
Location: 28th Path of Tzaddi
20 Feb 2012, 8:13 am
Ria1989 wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong. If the pedophiles hypothetically are not going to hell, when will they suffer for what they did to others? To me it's as if hell and heaven are set states that are irreversible. When is there time to learn from they've done wrong?
This is the hard part about accepting that there's no God - the universe doesn't have the sentience to care about justice, we do. The problem is, particularly with pedophiles as an example both of the following are true 1) they're societal monsters 2) they can't do anything about it. Its the same reason why in an atheistic society people would still need to go to jail for crimes even if they had no free will to do anything else; for practical intents and purposes there's really no recourse. Perhaps when the day comes that we can unravel the mysteries of the human mind to where we can come up with plausible intervention rather than chemical castration we'll have a truly wonderful breakthrough where a lose/lose scenario with nature doesn't have to happen. Unfortunately we may have many decades and will clearly have many lives ruined in the interim. Its nothing new in history though, when you think about it diabetics were dying horrible deaths until the advent of injectable insulin, and I don't even want to get into what was there for the mentally ill and disabled until perhaps the past couple centuries.
Point being though; at least as far as justice is concerned we don't live in a world of instant gratification, especially where justice is concerned and even moreo justice may never come in a lot of situations simply because reprisal won't make sense going forward.
_________________
The loneliest part of life: it's not just that no one is on your cloud, few can even see your cloud.
20 Feb 2012, 9:30 am
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Ria1989 wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong. If the pedophiles hypothetically are not going to hell, when will they suffer for what they did to others? To me it's as if hell and heaven are set states that are irreversible. When is there time to learn from they've done wrong?
This is the hard part about accepting that there's no GodThis is what makes that particular god/theology concept easy to dismiss!!
If your religion claims pedophiles get everlasting awesomeness forever and ever for simply believing something random like some guy died and was reborn, and someone who lives with morally and continually puts other people before himself get tortured in fire for eternity because of lack of belief in said random guy...well, quite frankly, even if it were true, I'd tell that god to go %^&* himself.
_________________
I am Ignostic.
Go ahead and define god, with universal acceptance of said definition.
I'll wait.
techstepgenr8tion
Veteran
Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 24,682
Location: 28th Path of Tzaddi
20 Feb 2012, 9:38 am
NarcissusSavage wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Ria1989 wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong. If the pedophiles hypothetically are not going to hell, when will they suffer for what they did to others? To me it's as if hell and heaven are set states that are irreversible. When is there time to learn from they've done wrong?
This is the hard part about accepting that there's no GodThis is what makes that particular god/theology concept easy to dismiss!!
If your religion claims pedophiles get everlasting awesomeness forever and ever for simply believing something random like some guy died and was reborn, and someone who lives with morality and continually puts other people before himself get tortured in fire for eternity because of lack of belief in said random guy...well, quite frankly, even if it were true, I'd tell that god to go %^&* himself.
Right, there's that but it seems like when theists moan about atheism one of their biggest objections is lack of eternal accountability for atrocities and evil. You bring up a good point though as well that this effect has a lot of violence done to it when a specific deity would also either let into heaven or say "I'm not sending you to hell - you sent yourself" to someone who didn't believe they existed, no matter what their reasoning. That's just something that Christians try to brush under the rug, ignore, or tell themselves is being read too harshly or shouldn't be taken that literal since they don't want to take it seriously for their own purposes, really all they want it for is the notion of reward beyond for those who were good people and got screwed like crazy here or punishment for those who did great violence to their fellow man but who saw no reprisal here.
_________________
The loneliest part of life: it's not just that no one is on your cloud, few can even see your cloud.
20 Feb 2012, 9:51 am
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
NarcissusSavage wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Ria1989 wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong. If the pedophiles hypothetically are not going to hell, when will they suffer for what they did to others? To me it's as if hell and heaven are set states that are irreversible. When is there time to learn from they've done wrong?
This is the hard part about accepting that there's no GodThis is what makes that particular god/theology concept easy to dismiss!!
If your religion claims pedophiles get everlasting awesomeness forever and ever for simply believing something random like some guy died and was reborn, and someone who lives with morality and continually puts other people before himself get tortured in fire for eternity because of lack of belief in said random guy...well, quite frankly, even if it were true, I'd tell that god to go %^&* himself.
Right, there's that but it seems like when theists moan about atheism one of their biggest objections is lack of eternal accountability for atrocities and evil. You bring up a good point though as well that this effect has a lot of violence done to it when a specific deity would also either let into heaven or say "I'm not sending you to hell - you sent yourself" to someone who didn't believe they existed, no matter what their reasoning. That's just something that Christians try to brush under the rug, ignore, or tell themselves is being read too harshly or shouldn't be taken that literal since they don't want to take it seriously for their own purposes, really all they want it for is the notion of reward beyond for those who were good people and got screwed like crazy here or punishment for those who did great violence to their fellow man but who saw no reprisal here.
I could be mistaken, as I am not a Christian...but ever one I've discussed this with remains firm that belief in Jesus is the requirement to heaven. They do not want "living a good life" to be the requirement, because their books idea of what that means is laid out in stone...literally. And I've never met a Christian that hasn't violated their own commandments. So, they very much are invested in the literal interpretation being true, and that the only requirement to heaven is faith. Unfortunately, that means the scumbags of earth get a free ride as just like the guy who lived like a saint. It boils down to them, that the only moral truth is faith, everything else is gravy.
_________________
I am Ignostic.
Go ahead and define god, with universal acceptance of said definition.
I'll wait.
AngelRho
Veteran
Joined: 4 Jan 2008
Age: 48
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,366
Location: The Landmass between N.O. and Mobile
20 Feb 2012, 9:52 am
Ria1989 wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong. If the pedophiles hypothetically are not going to hell, when will they suffer for what they did to others? To me it's as if hell and heaven are set states that are irreversible. When is there time to learn from they've done wrong?
How about while they're alive on earth?
The central point of Christianity is that God forgives sinners and provides a means of salvation for everyone. Faith in Jesus means repentance--which might take time depending on the person. According to the Bible, God made the universe in a week. Take that literally and compare with an entire lifetime of working on an individual human being and you'll see a greater measure of patience towards human beings than anything else in creation. (BTW this is not an attempt to make a case for creationism)
Since all are sinners, it's not about suffering and justice but rather recognizing that we are sinners and trying to reunite with God. Doesn't mean we'll get it right all the time but rather that we have hope that all is forgiven and we can escape the suffering we deserve. It also doesn't mean we'll escape earthly consequences. But there are more important things than retribution. The worst can come to know God and escape eternal consequences, while those who never wanted to know God in the first place aren't forced to.
Pedophiles aren't going to heaven if they don't know God anyway. Repentance is one way of proving that we have faith and is demanded of one who believes; and I'm convinced that a true believer will have a difficult time persisting in his former behavior. If you claim to know God, why would you persist in behavior you know is displeasing to Him?
Last edited by AngelRho on 20 Feb 2012, 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
techstepgenr8tion
Veteran
Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 24,682
Location: 28th Path of Tzaddi
20 Feb 2012, 9:58 am
NarcissusSavage wrote:
I could be mistaken, as I am not a Christian...but ever one I've discussed this with remains firm that belief in Jesus is the requirement to heaven. They do not want "living a good life" to be the requirement, because their books idea of what that means is laid out in stone...literally. And I've never met a Christian that hasn't violated their own commandments. So, they very much are invested in the literal interpretation being true, and that the only requirement to heaven is faith. Unfortunately, that means the scumbags of earth get a free ride as just like the guy who lived like a saint. It boils down to them, that the only moral truth is faith, everything else is gravy.
Well, I can't verify or deny what you're saying, but I have to admit that I don't think I know anyone who thinks that way, at least that I or my family associate with. Seems like everyone I know who's clinging to belief does so because they like believing that the universe itself is sentient, good, and in their corner to help them with adversity. That's their primary, first and foremost purpose - no such bloodlust to see gays and nobelievers burning.
_________________
The loneliest part of life: it's not just that no one is on your cloud, few can even see your cloud.
AngelRho
Veteran
Joined: 4 Jan 2008
Age: 48
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,366
Location: The Landmass between N.O. and Mobile
20 Feb 2012, 10:16 am
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
NarcissusSavage wrote:
I could be mistaken, as I am not a Christian...but ever one I've discussed this with remains firm that belief in Jesus is the requirement to heaven. They do not want "living a good life" to be the requirement, because their books idea of what that means is laid out in stone...literally. And I've never met a Christian that hasn't violated their own commandments. So, they very much are invested in the literal interpretation being true, and that the only requirement to heaven is faith. Unfortunately, that means the scumbags of earth get a free ride as just like the guy who lived like a saint. It boils down to them, that the only moral truth is faith, everything else is gravy.
Well, I can't verify or deny what you're saying, but I have to admit that I don't think I know anyone who thinks that way, at least that I or my family associate with. Seems like everyone I know who's clinging to belief does so because they like believing that the universe itself is sentient, good, and in their corner to help them with adversity. That's their primary, first and foremost purpose - no such bloodlust to see gays and nobelievers burning.
See bold...
Christians can't claim to be perfect. We can only do our best at repentance. We don't get it right all the time, but the least we can do is try.
All are guilty of sin and deserve death. That the "scumbags of earth get a free ride" is only hope that all can come to know God and be forgiven no matter how awful they've been. We're all equally scumbags. The difference is we don't see all scum as being equally scum. We tend to like certain types of scum more than other kinds of scum. But it's all still scum!
But, as I've said before, someone who places his faith in Christ doesn't want to be a scumbag anymore. I'd say someone who claims to be a Christian but blatantly continues to act like a scumbag and doesn't even try to show any kind of change of heart or life probably really isn't a Christian at worst, or at best just hasn't figured it out yet. We're all works in progress.
techstepgenr8tion
Veteran
Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 24,682
Location: 28th Path of Tzaddi
20 Feb 2012, 10:22 am
AngelRho wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Well, I can't verify or deny what you're saying, but I have to admit that I don't think I know anyone who thinks that way, at least that I or my family associate with. Seems like everyone I know who's clinging to belief does so because they like believing that the universe itself is sentient, good, and in their corner to help them with adversity. That's their primary, first and foremost purpose - no such bloodlust to see gays and nobelievers burning.
See bold...
Christians can't claim to be perfect. We can only do our best at repentance. We don't get it right all the time, but the least we can do is try.
All are guilty of sin and deserve death. That the "scumbags of earth get a free ride" is only hope that all can come to know God and be forgiven no matter how awful they've been. We're all equally scumbags. The difference is we don't see all scum as being equally scum. We tend to like certain types of scum more than other kinds of scum. But it's all still scum!
But, as I've said before, someone who places his faith in Christ doesn't want to be a scumbag anymore. I'd say someone who claims to be a Christian but blatantly continues to act like a scumbag and doesn't even try to show any kind of change of heart or life probably really isn't a Christian at worst, or at best just hasn't figured it out yet. We're all works in progress.
Narcissus: correction, I have zero plus one now.
_________________
The loneliest part of life: it's not just that no one is on your cloud, few can even see your cloud.
PlatedDrake
Veteran
Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,365
Location: Piedmont Region, NC, USA
20 Feb 2012, 10:29 am
To believe or not to believe, that is the question . . .
Most people here believe in facts . . .
fact: no one truly knows what happens after death
fact: people of influence abuse others for sake of control
fact: some religious people have done some good, but tons more have committed atrocities in the name of their faith
fact: Religion plays on one's fears of the unknown (has been done for as long as humans have been around and could communicate ideas)
While the concept behind them may seem honorable or agreeable, they aren't necessarily right. If god gave us all we have, wouldnt it be wise to use it, question things, so that perhaps we can understand the whys? All in all, humanity has only had written knowledge for a few thousand years, and the galaxy is billions of years old . . . yeah, I'd say we still have a hell of a lot more to learn . . . pardon the pun.
