Do you think the modern era is hostile to novelty?

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marshall
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25 May 2012, 10:45 am

ruveyn wrote:
marshall wrote:

Don't worry, I'm far from memorized. I just see the death in the belief in human progress due to rampant cynicism as a dangerous path towards cultural decline. It just feels like nobody is interested in facing the future anymore.


What do you mean by progress? We see technological advance virtually on a daily basis. Is your idea of "progress" distinct from technological advance?

If you mean by "progress" are humans getting any better in the moral or ethical sense, then prepare to be disappointed. From an ethical or moral p.o.v. we are the same nasty beast as we were 10,000 years ago. Our moral/ethical nature (or lack thereof) is genetically wired in.

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Our moral and ethical sense may not have changed, but we are more capable expanding empathy to a larger circle. In primitive times those people outside your tribe were by default enemies. People who could not speak or understand your language were to be feared. Indeed they were often assumed to not even be fully human. Making war with them, ransacking and pillaging their village, was totally morally justified as it was assumed they would do the same to your people if given the chance.



marshall
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25 May 2012, 11:05 am

edgewaters wrote:
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The Mother of Growth is technological innovation. Therefor those societies which nurture and encourage such innovation are likely to be better for the folks who live in them.


True, but innovation comes from a mindset which thinks in terms of possibilities, not limitations.


Technological innovation isn't going to come from those with the mindset that innovation is simply the means to an end, which is to milk as much money out of something as possible before the patent expires.



ruveyn
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25 May 2012, 2:03 pm

marshall wrote:

Technological innovation isn't going to come from those with the mindset that innovation is simply the means to an end, which is to milk as much money out of something as possible before the patent expires.


Creative innovators invent out of a love and passion for making something new. Rent collecting on the idea usually is third or fourth on the list of motives.

The Brothers Wright developed their flyer because they were hot to see what they could do. It was only years later on that Wilbur went around suing other folks for elaborating on the ideas of the Wrights. Wilbur was misguided in that quest and happily for the rest of us, unnsuccesful.

ruveyn



edgewaters
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26 May 2012, 1:58 am

marshall wrote:
Technological innovation isn't going to come from those with the mindset that innovation is simply the means to an end, which is to milk as much money out of something as possible before the patent expires.


That's true, too. But I see that as a kind of thinking in terms of barriers - or at least, myopic (which is not a very innovative mindframe either).



ruveyn
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26 May 2012, 12:18 pm

marshall wrote:

Our moral and ethical sense may not have changed, but we are more capable expanding empathy to a larger circle. In primitive times those people outside your tribe were by default enemies. People who could not speak or understand your language were to be feared. Indeed they were often assumed to not even be fully human. Making war with them, ransacking and pillaging their village, was totally morally justified as it was assumed they would do the same to your people if given the chance.


Our "moral empathy" is something made possible by having enough surplus so we do not have to worry about where our next meal is coming from. When things are tight see how much moral empathy there is. The best guarantee of generous behavior is material prosperity.

Human beings are born egotists and care more for their own children than the children of strangers.

ruveyn



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26 May 2012, 7:02 pm

Why fix what's not been broken?


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marshall
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26 May 2012, 7:03 pm

ruveyn wrote:
marshall wrote:

Our moral and ethical sense may not have changed, but we are more capable expanding empathy to a larger circle. In primitive times those people outside your tribe were by default enemies. People who could not speak or understand your language were to be feared. Indeed they were often assumed to not even be fully human. Making war with them, ransacking and pillaging their village, was totally morally justified as it was assumed they would do the same to your people if given the chance.


Our "moral empathy" is something made possible by having enough surplus so we do not have to worry about where our next meal is coming from. When things are tight see how much moral empathy there is. The best guarantee of generous behavior is material prosperity.

Human beings are born egotists and care more for their own children than the children of strangers.

ruveyn


Most people prefer to live with some sense of stability and security. Purely selfish and egotistical behavior is not beneficial for the individual as it ultimately will lead to violence and insecurity. The only people for whom it may not be in their self interest to have a moral society that takes care of its people are the most wealthy and powerful. In the end they will be the only ones who can afford to buy protection. Inclination towards cooperation beyond immediate family is one of the main evolutionary characteristics that separates humans from other animals.

Feel free to keep projecting your own personal feelings to all of humanity though.

I also think you are dead wrong to think people who have to worry about their next meal will be less inclined to play fair and cooperate. If anything they have a stronger inclination to empathize within their communities. They have to to survive.