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Che Guevara: Hero or Villan?

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Shatbat
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08 Jun 2012, 2:24 pm

You're the one living there~ Expect someone else like Raptor or Eagle or ruveyn to debate you on that one though :P


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Joker
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08 Jun 2012, 2:25 pm

Shatbat wrote:
You're the one living there~ Expect someone else like Raptor or Eagle or ruveyn to debate you on that one though :P


They are gonna disagree but they can't change my mind though. I wana live in Ireland



ArrantPariah
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08 Jun 2012, 2:37 pm

Shatbat wrote:
So US presidents of the past have limited their genocide to countries besides their own.

From what I know about history, a lot of central and sounth-american dictators (Somoza, Trujillo, Batista, Pinochet) where endorsed by the U.S. on their anti-communist cruzades.


To be fair, Ronald Reagan was a big proponent of the death penalty within the USA (which, of course, would not apply to any of his rich friends at all).

His "War on Drugs" led to the USA having the planet's highest incarceration rate.

He deliberately set about bankrupting the nation through enormous tax cuts for his rich friends, while at the same time massively increasing military spending beyond levels that were insane.

He appointed none other than James Watt as Secretary of Interior. His whole cabinet was a joke.



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08 Jun 2012, 2:40 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
Shatbat wrote:
So US presidents of the past have limited their genocide to countries besides their own.

From what I know about history, a lot of central and sounth-american dictators (Somoza, Trujillo, Batista, Pinochet) where endorsed by the U.S. on their anti-communist cruzades.


To be fair, Ronald Reagan was a big proponent of the death penalty within the USA (which, of course, would not apply to any of his rich friends at all).

His "War on Drugs" led to the USA having the planet's highest incarceration rate.

He deliberately set about bankrupting the nation through enormous tax cuts for his rich friends, while at the same time massively increasing military spending beyond levels that were insane.

He appointed none other than James Watt as Secretary of Interior. His whole cabinet was a joke.


He was for raising the taxes on the rich as well but he couldnt get it passed.



Declension
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08 Jun 2012, 3:10 pm

I don't know enough about Guevara himself to be able to comfortably pass judgment. What I do know is that overthrowing U.S.-backed dictators is a worthy goal.



AstroGeek
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08 Jun 2012, 3:17 pm

Declension wrote:
I don't know enough about Guevara himself to be able to comfortably pass judgment. What I do know is that overthrowing U.S.-backed dictators is a worthy goal.

He's rather scary though. He may well have had good intentions, but he became so obsessed with them that he was willing to do just about anything to achieve them. My guess is that a big part of the reason people look upon him more kindly than the Castros is that Che left Cuba not too long after the revolution, so there's the impression that he was never as corrupted by power. God knows, considering the things he did without that corruption, I sure wouldn't want to see him with it.



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08 Jun 2012, 3:19 pm

Declension wrote:
I don't know enough about Guevara himself to be able to comfortably pass judgment. What I do know is that overthrowing U.S.-backed dictators is a worthy goal.


He did evil things for the greater good.



Shatbat
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08 Jun 2012, 3:25 pm

When I get home, I'm taking that biography of Guevara my father has laying around and give it a good read. This topic will be probably be dead by then but... my parents named me after him so it's personal :lol: I should definitely know more about him than the paragraphs I readin my history books.


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Declension
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08 Jun 2012, 3:28 pm

AstroGeek wrote:
He's rather scary though. He may well have had good intentions, but he became so obsessed with them that he was willing to do just about anything to achieve them.


The way I see it, the scale goes like this, from best to worst:
(1.) liberal democracy
(2.) dictatorship
(3.) dictatorship acting as a proxy for a foreign superpower

Moving from (3.) to (2.) is a good start.



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08 Jun 2012, 3:32 pm

Fediel Castro and Che had to overthrow a brutal dictator his name was.

Fulgencio Batista the United States-aligned Cuban President, dictator and military leader who served as the leader of Cuba from 1940 to 1944 and from 1952 to 1959, before being overthrown as a result of the Cuban Revolution.

So for that reason I see Che as a hero.



Kraichgauer
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08 Jun 2012, 3:39 pm

Actually, it was a democratic socialist movement that had taken the reigns of power from Batista - after which Castro had sized power from them shortly after.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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08 Jun 2012, 3:45 pm

Shatbat wrote:
Joker wrote:
Communist leaders build themself up like Gods. They do how ever know how to create jobs but people like to own things you can't own things in a communist country.


Emperors, pharaohs, kings, dictators (guess what, Trujillo again) and other persons in a position of absolute power like to think of themselves as gods, descendants of gods, or enforcers of his will. That's not limited to communism.

And yeah, people like to own stuff. No way around that.


This is all very true.



AstroGeek
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08 Jun 2012, 4:27 pm

Declension wrote:
AstroGeek wrote:
He's rather scary though. He may well have had good intentions, but he became so obsessed with them that he was willing to do just about anything to achieve them.


The way I see it, the scale goes like this, from best to worst:
(1.) liberal democracy
(2.) dictatorship
(3.) dictatorship acting as a proxy for a foreign superpower

Moving from (3.) to (2.) is a good start.

Yes, although I was more talking about the revolution itself than the subsequent dictatorship.



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08 Jun 2012, 5:15 pm

Joker wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Shatbat wrote:
So US presidents of the past have limited their genocide to countries besides their own.

From what I know about history, a lot of central and sounth-american dictators (Somoza, Trujillo, Batista, Pinochet) where endorsed by the U.S. on their anti-communist cruzades.


To be fair, Ronald Reagan was a big proponent of the death penalty within the USA (which, of course, would not apply to any of his rich friends at all).

His "War on Drugs" led to the USA having the planet's highest incarceration rate.

He deliberately set about bankrupting the nation through enormous tax cuts for his rich friends, while at the same time massively increasing military spending beyond levels that were insane.

He appointed none other than James Watt as Secretary of Interior. His whole cabinet was a joke.


He was for raising the taxes on the rich as well but he couldnt get it passed.


No he wasn't.



Raptor
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08 Jun 2012, 7:10 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
Raptor wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
On the other hand, their was Ronald Reagan, who was a big champion of right-wing death squads.


Within the US?
I don't think so........ :roll:


No, silly.

http://www.democracynow.org/2004/6/8/re ... cher_of_my

Quote:
The 8 years Reagan was in office represented one of the most bloody eras in the history of the Western hemisphere, as Washington funneled money, weapons and other supplies to right wing death squads. And the death toll was staggering–more than 70,000 political killings in El Salvador, more than 100,000 in Guatemala, 30,000 killed in the contra war in Nicaragua. In Washington, the forces carrying out the violence were called "freedom fighters." This is how Ronald Reagan described the Contras in Nicaragua: "They are our brothers, these freedom fighters and we owe them our help. They are the moral equal of our founding fathers."



All I had to read was "The 8 years Reagan was in office represented one of the most bloody eras in the history of the Western hemisphere............." and I could pretty much detect by the leftist tone that I needn't read further.



Joker
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08 Jun 2012, 7:13 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
Joker wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Shatbat wrote:
So US presidents of the past have limited their genocide to countries besides their own.

From what I know about history, a lot of central and sounth-american dictators (Somoza, Trujillo, Batista, Pinochet) where endorsed by the U.S. on their anti-communist cruzades.


To be fair, Ronald Reagan was a big proponent of the death penalty within the USA (which, of course, would not apply to any of his rich friends at all).

His "War on Drugs" led to the USA having the planet's highest incarceration rate.

He deliberately set about bankrupting the nation through enormous tax cuts for his rich friends, while at the same time massively increasing military spending beyond levels that were insane.

He appointed none other than James Watt as Secretary of Interior. His whole cabinet was a joke.


He was for raising the taxes on the rich as well but he couldnt get it passed.


No he wasn't.


Yes he was.