Atheists, do you believe in air?
Mikkel wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Mikkel wrote:
To the OP - I don't even know that I exist as I and I don't believe I exist. I just act as if I do. 
The fact that you invoked the "I" in your statement indicates that you express yourself as though you exist.
ruveyn
Yes, that would be the case if I am me, but that is unknown.
If you're not you then who are you?
Are you someone else?
naturalplastic wrote:
Mikkel wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Mikkel wrote:
To the OP - I don't even know that I exist as I and I don't believe I exist. I just act as if I do. 
The fact that you invoked the "I" in your statement indicates that you express yourself as though you exist.
ruveyn
Yes, that would be the case if I am me, but that is unknown.
If you're not you then who are you?
Are you someone else?
Mikkel wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Mikkel wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Mikkel wrote:
To the OP - I don't even know that I exist as I and I don't believe I exist. I just act as if I do. 
The fact that you invoked the "I" in your statement indicates that you express yourself as though you exist.
ruveyn
Yes, that would be the case if I am me, but that is unknown.
If you're not you then who are you?
Are you someone else?
Didnt it go:
" I am the wisest man in Athens because I know what I don't know"
But I agree with Descarte who said
"I post on WP, therefore I am ( I exist)".
Or he said something like that.
Last edited by naturalplastic on 16 Nov 2012, 3:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
naturalplastic wrote:
Mikkel wrote:
Didnt it go:
" I am the wisest man in Athens because I know what I don't know"
But I agree with Kant who said
"I post on WP, therefore I am ( I exist)".
Or he said something like that.
Well, you are right, it is only derived from and then attributed to Socrates.
As to I think, therefore I am - it could also be something thinks, therefore something exists, because René Descartes never did prove that something thinks leads to I am me. I could be something else.
naturalplastic wrote:
Sorry- Descarte.
Not Kant.
But just by posting here on WP youve proven your existence.
As Socrates said "to do is to be".
And as Sartre said "to be is to do".
And as Sinatra said " do be do be doooo".
Not Kant.
But just by posting here on WP youve proven your existence.
As Socrates said "to do is to be".
And as Sartre said "to be is to do".
And as Sinatra said " do be do be doooo".
To the bold; there is a difference between A is A versus A is B or A is not B/but rather C. Now we can plow through Descartes but it will be connected to the 3 classical laws of thought and the difference between analytical truth and synthetical truth.
naturalplastic wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
Ok, anyone who used "I know air exists because I'm not dead" or something along those lines is an idiot. That means you are basing the existence of air upon the faith that it's required to breathe even though you don't have proof of that, and thus you are being a hypocrite. The proper response is "because I can feel it" or something like that. You need to prove that air exists before you can prove that's it's needed for life, or you need to prove that life cannot exist without air, which one I don't think is necessarily true if we look beyond life as we know it, and it would be a lot harder to prove than just proving air exists.
While the OP chose a very bad example, he does have a point. Even atheists are dependent on faith. Why do we believe that the speed of light is the maximum speed and it is what it is? How many of us have actually bothered to collect the needed data and made the proper calculations to arrive at such a conclusion? Most atheists just have faith that those scientists are telling the truth. The same goes for theists.
Now let's go to the infamous "Brain Joke". An atheist teaches that God doesn't exist by saying that he cannot be seen, heard, touched, tasted, smelled, or felt. A student then stands up and confronts the teacher, asking him if he can see, hear, touch, taste, or smell his brain. The teacher responds in the negative to each one, and thus the student announces to the rest of his class that his teacher lacks a brain. Now, assuming the brain does in fact exist, it is true that he can be touched, heard, seen, tasted, and smelled at a later point in time, but at the present time it is true it cannot be tasted, felt, seen, head, or tasted. However, while the brain cannot be directly observed there is still evidence of it's existence as it's effects can be observed. For theists it's the same with God, in their minds they see evidence for the existence of God. Some even claim that they can directly observe God. Thus the whole "God doesn't exist because he cannot be observed" argument falls appart and it's revealed that the real difference between theists and atheists is what they believe to be evidence for the existence of God and whether or not they can observe that.
While they state otherwise, Militant Atheists are really no different than the religions they try to destroy. They only difference is they claim to be based around logic instead of faith, but if you actually look at it logically you would see this isn't really true. Einstein said that the belief is the God of Abraham is childish, but he also despised atheists because they are are arrogant, and it's not hard to see what he's getting at here.
While the OP chose a very bad example, he does have a point. Even atheists are dependent on faith. Why do we believe that the speed of light is the maximum speed and it is what it is? How many of us have actually bothered to collect the needed data and made the proper calculations to arrive at such a conclusion? Most atheists just have faith that those scientists are telling the truth. The same goes for theists.
Now let's go to the infamous "Brain Joke". An atheist teaches that God doesn't exist by saying that he cannot be seen, heard, touched, tasted, smelled, or felt. A student then stands up and confronts the teacher, asking him if he can see, hear, touch, taste, or smell his brain. The teacher responds in the negative to each one, and thus the student announces to the rest of his class that his teacher lacks a brain. Now, assuming the brain does in fact exist, it is true that he can be touched, heard, seen, tasted, and smelled at a later point in time, but at the present time it is true it cannot be tasted, felt, seen, head, or tasted. However, while the brain cannot be directly observed there is still evidence of it's existence as it's effects can be observed. For theists it's the same with God, in their minds they see evidence for the existence of God. Some even claim that they can directly observe God. Thus the whole "God doesn't exist because he cannot be observed" argument falls appart and it's revealed that the real difference between theists and atheists is what they believe to be evidence for the existence of God and whether or not they can observe that.
While they state otherwise, Militant Atheists are really no different than the religions they try to destroy. They only difference is they claim to be based around logic instead of faith, but if you actually look at it logically you would see this isn't really true. Einstein said that the belief is the God of Abraham is childish, but he also despised atheists because they are are arrogant, and it's not hard to see what he's getting at here.
Whoa..
Stop at your first sentence!
Everytime I have ever held by breath for more than a few dozen seconds- I have to gasp for breath to stop the agony.
Thats powerful empiracle evidence that not only does air exist- but atleast THIS organism ( I, myself) needs air to live.
But you're claiming that my belief in air ( both its existence and its necessisity for life) has no basis in empiracle observation , and is faith based.
How so?
It sure feels like Im dying when I hold my breath. How is that observation "faith based?".
You don't know you are going to die, also you already know the air exists because you can feel in it your mouth/chest. The problem is the order in logic.
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Schneekugel wrote:
Quote:
While the OP chose a very bad example, he does have a point. Even atheists are dependent on faith. Why do we believe that the speed of light is the maximum speed and it is what it is? How many of us have actually bothered to collect the needed data and made the proper calculations to arrive at such a conclusion? Most atheists just have faith that those scientists are telling the truth. The same goes for theists.
Nope, there is a huge difference. : Everyone who wants to collect scientific data can do that on his own without problem, because you are not forced to be dependent on faith. You can choose and there are many who have chosen to collect the data by themself. Or had graduade school where you are shown to proof such basic question in physic and chemie. (Sorry, but air pressure was even known in the antique and scientific used for buildings. You know, empty intestines, filled with water and whew, thanks to air pressure, you were able to level heights around corners, for exact building. The proof that this was right is still standing in Greek/Athen, called Akropolis, visible for every tourist.) So you can choose between believing of proofing it to yourself.
If the same goes for atheists, as you say, i would be thankful if you could show me a known test scenario which i can use to proof me the existence of a god. (So i´m not fanatic, every god will be just fine for me. If i am allowed to choose, i´d prefer a sexy love god with sixpack, if thats ok to you.)
I'm not referring to simple experiments dealing with air pressure, I'm referring to things like gathering information on thousands of species of animals, or scanning a brain, or building a super collider and the like. You have faith that the scientists made the super collider to have accurate information. You also have faith that your eyes don't deceive you, that reality isn't just an illusion.
The thing is it there are experiments people use to test the existence of God, namely praying or the like, and people come to conflicting results. Anyone can pray. Just because you don't find something to be evidence for something doesn't mean that other people don't.
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Ganondox wrote:
You have faith that the scientists made the super collider to have accurate information.
You are perfectly welcome to question the scientists at CERN about the LHC. In fact, they'd love it. No holds barred, you get to know everything they know, if you want. The question is: do you have enough knowledge of quantum and particle physics to verify what they are showing and telling you? I certainly don't.
If you want, you can even build your own cloud chamber to see and study atom decay for yourself.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pewTySxfTQk[/youtube]
There is a huge difference between questioning something because you lack the knowledge to understand it and questioning something because there isn't any emperical evidence for it.
NewDawn wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
You have faith that the scientists made the super collider to have accurate information.
You are perfectly welcome to question the scientists at CERN about the LHC. In fact, they'd love it. No holds barred, you get to know everything they know, if you want. The question is: do you have enough knowledge of quantum and particle physics to verify what they are showing and telling you? I certainly don't.
If you want, you can even build your own cloud chamber to see and study atom decay for yourself.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pewTySxfTQk[/youtube]
There is a huge difference between questioning something because you lack the knowledge to understand it and questioning something because there isn't any emperical evidence for it.
But how do you know that you only lack knowledge and there isn't a lack of empirical evidence? You have faith that the empirical evidence exists, faith that if you had the knowledge you could understand.
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Ganondox wrote:
But how do you know that you only lack knowledge and there isn't a lack of empirical evidence? You have faith that the empirical evidence exists, faith that if you had the knowledge you could understand.
That sounds almost like a conspiracy theory
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abacacus wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
But how do you know that you only lack knowledge and there isn't a lack of empirical evidence? You have faith that the empirical evidence exists, faith that if you had the knowledge you could understand.
That sounds almost like a conspiracy theory
For all we know there is a conspiracy, most people just have faith that the world is as it appears to be.
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Ganondox wrote:
abacacus wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
But how do you know that you only lack knowledge and there isn't a lack of empirical evidence? You have faith that the empirical evidence exists, faith that if you had the knowledge you could understand.
That sounds almost like a conspiracy theory
For all we know there is a conspiracy, most people just have faith that the world is as it appears to be.
Occam's Razor comes into play here. Sure, that is possible, but a conspiracy of that size maintaining itself for this long? Chances are incredibly slim.
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