10 Pro-Gun Myths, Shot Down

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02 Mar 2013, 8:04 am

if any country ever tried to invade vermont you would see gorrilla warefare like nobody's business.forget AR 15's,there would be hill billys with 30-30's behind every bush.people who know these woods like a taxi driver knows there city.i cant speak for america and the blade of grass quote,but the quote is true of rural new england

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ScrewyWabbit
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02 Mar 2013, 11:32 am

John_Browning wrote:

Since no gun was ever designed for someone to walk into a room and massacre unarmed people,

Maybe no gun was ever designed with this declared purpose, but many, many guns have been designed to a) be wieldable by one person and b) to shoot as many rounds as possible in as short an amount of time as possible. Any such gun is ideally suited to this purpose, whether or not that was the intent.

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02 Mar 2013, 12:24 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

I hardly think a professional army - ours or a foreign invader - is going to worry much about a bunch of disorganized yahoos with guns.

I know you and I have had a little chat about guerrilla warfare in the not too distant past.
I guess it didn’t quite take…..

UnLoser wrote:

The US Gov could decide tomorrow to completely ban all firearms and I wouldn't care one bit.

If you don’t mind losing one right so easily what do you think about losing the rest? A chain is only as strong as its weakest link…..

Kraichgauer wrote:

dunno - - I think a killer without a gun is much less effective than a killer with a gun.

And banning them somehow makes all the existing ones go away?
I can see that you’re trying to stick to the party line on this subject but several of your political stripe are pro-gun. Probably more so in recent years than before.

Kraichgauer wrote:

It's just common sense, though, that Adam Lanza wouldn't have had such a high body count were he using - say - a knife or pitch fork, or just a regular fire arm.

WTF is a “regular firearm” and how would you legally define regular from irregular?
This should be good.

ScrewyWabbit wrote:

Too late because they've already been invented and I have lots of them.
I guess it's just a fluke that I'm not a mass murderer. :roll:

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Kraichgauer
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02 Mar 2013, 6:06 pm

John_Browning wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

I hardly think a professional army - ours or a foreign invader - is going to worry much about a bunch of disorganized yahoos with guns. I'm going to put more trust in our government to fight a foreign invader, rather than the guy down the street hoarding weapons. After all, Red Dawn was only a movie - and a very bad one at that - especially the remake.

Our gun ownership was a major factor in Japan abandoning it's dreams to occupy North America. Yamamoto was Harvard educated and he feared going to war against us at all. While the "blade of grass" quote is contestable, his opposition to invading the US is what forced them to try and make us sign a treaty without much fight after they destroyed all our naval power in the Pacific. That didn't go as planned with much of our fleet (minus battleships) at sea when we were attacked, but they still weren't going to try and invade any states now known as the "lower 48".

Kraichgauer wrote:

AS far as the old west is concerned, despite what you see on TV and movie westerns, while there was a lot of violence, the fact of the matter was, it was curbed in municipalities by concerned citizens, with strong gun control laws, enforced by often famous, no-nonsense law men including Wyatt Earp or Wild Bill Hickok.

There were not hostile Indians behind every ridge or bandits behind every other rock. A lot of the settlers and farm/ranch hands were civil war veterans who got good at defending themselves. Violence tended to follow the supply of cheap alcohol and opium. Sheriffs like the Earp brothers tried to enact strict (and unconstitutional) gun control measures, and it worked so well that it culminated in a shootout that made history, plus a series of other, lesser known shootouts before there was some degree of peace. Even then, criminals did not obey gun laws and they had to be shot to make the crime rate drop!

I can't speak about Yamamoto, but in regard to the old west - in particular Tombstone - the people pushing back on the Earp's gun control measures were the criminal element. The Clantons and McLauerys were notorious as rustlers, were suspects in stage coach robberies, and were affiliated with Curly Bill Brocious and Johny Ringo, who were definitely bad guys. So the men killed at the OK Coral were hardly just gun rights advocates. The fact remains, in most cases, the towns themselves passed gun control measures, especially since there were hard working cowboys, miners, teamsters, farm hands, rail road workers, etc. coming into town to get roaring drunk, visit prostitutes, and to make/lose what little money they had in gambling dens coming in on pay day. Few of these men were violent criminals, but the combination of alcohol, gambling, and sex would make the situation a powder keg. The gun control laws kept the peace - especially with a hard ass lawman enforcing it. That was certainly the case here in Spokane, back in the old west. Incidentally, there were no laws against owning guns for residents - you just couldn't go brandishing it out in public.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

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02 Mar 2013, 6:12 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

you just couldn't go brandishing it out in public.

Be careful - "brandishing" a firearm has a very specific legal definition, and is - to this day - a crime in every jurisdiction I know of.

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02 Mar 2013, 6:18 pm

I'd add something but I'm currently at the shooting range with two of my murder weapons rehearsing for another murder.
At least according to J-Greens that's what I'm doing.

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Kraichgauer
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02 Mar 2013, 6:21 pm

Raptor wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

I hardly think a professional army - ours or a foreign invader - is going to worry much about a bunch of disorganized yahoos with guns.

I know you and I have had a little chat about guerrilla warfare in the not too distant past.
I guess it didn’t quite take…..

UnLoser wrote:

The US Gov could decide tomorrow to completely ban all firearms and I wouldn't care one bit.

If you don’t mind losing one right so easily what do you think about losing the rest? A chain is only as strong as its weakest link…..

Kraichgauer wrote:

dunno - - I think a killer without a gun is much less effective than a killer with a gun.

Kraichgauer wrote:

It's just common sense, though, that Adam Lanza wouldn't have had such a high body count were he using - say - a knife or pitch fork, or just a regular fire arm.

WTF is a “regular firearm” and how would you legally define regular from irregular?
This should be good.

ScrewyWabbit wrote:

Too late because they've already been invented and I have lots of them.
I guess it's just a fluke that I'm not a mass murderer. :roll:

Of course guerrilla warfare can be effective - but with the exception of the Battle of the Teutoberg Forest two thousand years ago, it's a protracted, lengthy process in which the invader finally just has enough and goes home, but without any real major defeats. Other times, it might not be effective at all. And in the case of the Teutoberg Forest, the Germanic tribesmen fighting the Roman invaders were hardly just local yahoos, but were trained warriors - many in fact trained as auxiliaries in the Roman military. And in that case, all fighting was performed without the invention of firearms, but with spears, swords, and shields.
And no, I'm not so naive as to believe automatic weapons would just go away if banned - but it would make their numbers a lot less available over time. And of course any gun can and will kill. But an automatic weapon has no other purpose than to kill, and accomplishes it's purpose with devastating results that are unheard of with any other fire arm.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

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02 Mar 2013, 6:23 pm

Raptor wrote:

I'd add something but I'm currently at the shooting range with two of my murder weapons rehearsing for another murder.
At least according to J-Greens that's what I'm doing.

While I certainly appreciate that some people on this thread have been "difficult", it's not appropriate for those of us who are pro-2A to stoop to their level. When they come at us with emotion, they're being passionate in their cause. When we do it, it's used as an example to show how we're too unstable to be trusted with a gun.

Double-standard as it is, we have to hold ourselves to a higher standard. Everyone here needs to recognize that intelligent people can have differing opinions on this issue - but as long as we all respect each other's opinion we can have a meaningful and intelligent dialog.

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02 Mar 2013, 6:26 pm

Raptor wrote:

I'd add something but I'm currently at the shooting range with two of my murder weapons rehearsing for another murder.
At least according to J-Greens that's what I'm doing.

I hardly am one to think most people as yourself who fire guns for recreation are insane psychos and killers. Any more than I'd think any of us Aspies are ticking time bombs.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

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02 Mar 2013, 9:13 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

Raptor wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

I hardly think a professional army - ours or a foreign invader - is going to worry much about a bunch of disorganized yahoos with guns.

I know you and I have had a little chat about guerrilla warfare in the not too distant past.
I guess it didn’t quite take…..

UnLoser wrote:

The US Gov could decide tomorrow to completely ban all firearms and I wouldn't care one bit.

If you don’t mind losing one right so easily what do you think about losing the rest? A chain is only as strong as its weakest link…..

Kraichgauer wrote:

dunno - - I think a killer without a gun is much less effective than a killer with a gun.

Kraichgauer wrote:

It's just common sense, though, that Adam Lanza wouldn't have had such a high body count were he using - say - a knife or pitch fork, or just a regular fire arm.

WTF is a “regular firearm” and how would you legally define regular from irregular?
This should be good.

ScrewyWabbit wrote:

Too late because they've already been invented and I have lots of them.
I guess it's just a fluke that I'm not a mass murderer. :roll:

Guerrilla warfare is about improvisation and attacking a superior enemy at it's vulnerable points and demoralizing the troops. It's not about killing them by the hundreds of thousands.
Now your going into automatic weapons. Who said anything about them?

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Kraichgauer
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02 Mar 2013, 9:23 pm

I figured by inference, automatic weapons were relevant.
And while guerrilla warfare can be about hit and run and demoralization, it can also be about destroying an enemy outright, as the three Roman legions under Varus were in the Teutoberg forest.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

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02 Mar 2013, 9:48 pm

sliqua-jcooter wrote:

Raptor wrote:

I'd add something but I'm currently at the shooting range with two of my murder weapons rehearsing for another murder.
At least according to J-Greens that's what I'm doing.

This line:

Quote:

At least according to J-Greens that's what I'm doing.

should have abundantly made my point.
(hint: sarcasm)
I'm not into appeasing people that cannot for the life of them come to these debates with a single valid argument.
And, yes, I really was at the shooting range at the time. My f_cking fingers were too cold to type a longer and more eloquent response even if I'd wanted to.

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Last edited by Raptor on 02 Mar 2013, 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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02 Mar 2013, 10:02 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

I figured by inference, automatic weapons were relevant.

We have not had a discussion on automatic weapons recently.

Kraichgauer wrote:

And while guerrilla warfare can be about hit and run and demoralization, it can also be about destroying an enemy outright, as the three Roman legions under Varus were in the Teutoberg forest.

In modern guerrilla warfare hit and run tactics, ambushes, sniper work, and booby-traps to name a few are pretty much going to be standard and most effective method. History is full of more recent examples than the battle of Teutoburg Forest…..

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Kraichgauer
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03 Mar 2013, 12:27 am

I'm certain automatic weapons were brought up somewhere in this thread by someone other than me.
And while I agree there have been examples of guerrilla warfare since the Teutoberg forest, I brought that up as an example of a rare occasion where a professional army had been defeated outright by guerrilla fighters.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

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03 Mar 2013, 12:29 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

Okay, it's well established that alcohol was (and still is) a common denominator for high crime of all types in the boomtowns. However, it is hard to make a case for the success of gun control laws when the violent criminals had to be shot to bring peace. Shootings between two men over their vices were not considered a problem there during that era. The gangs were the ones that came and forced a change in policy. However a policy regulating peaceful people proved ineffective, and it's hard if not impossible to measure the effectiveness on a group of people that aren't inclined to violent behavior. The only thing established in Tombstone by the Earp brothers is that meeting violent criminals with deadly force works best!

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03 Mar 2013, 12:36 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

I'm certain automatic weapons were brought up somewhere in this thread by someone other than me.

Regardless of who brought them up, no automatic weapons have been manufactured for sale on the civilian market since May 19th, 1986. They have always been rare in private possession, even before 1934, because they were somewhat cost prohibitive even before they were regulated.

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