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Moviefan2k4
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07 Nov 2013, 11:55 am

I dabbled very briefly in smoking over ten years ago, but cigarettes tasted like I was sucking on charcoal. I also kept thinking about my aunt, who smoked for 40 years and coughed like crazy because of it. I like being able to take a breath without tons of effort.

I don't condemn those with a nicotine addiction, but I won't enable them either. If someone asks me to buy them a pack, or give them money for smokes, I politely refuse. I also think its good manners for people who smoke to do so outdoors, unless the weather's too cold for it.


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Asperger96
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07 Nov 2013, 11:59 am

What I don't understand: I see parents BUYING cigarettes for their TEENAGERS

WTF?



Kraichgauer
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07 Nov 2013, 12:06 pm

Asperger96 wrote:
What I don't understand: I see parents BUYING cigarettes for their TEENAGERS

WTF?


Years ago, I was at a local sci/fi club's Christmas party, where one lady allowed her pre-adoloscent son smoke.
WTF is right!


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sonofghandi
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07 Nov 2013, 12:28 pm

Ladywoofwoof wrote:
Well, as you would know if you watched the video which I posted.... 53% of the people who quit that were surveyed said that it wasn't very difficult.
So they probably didn't do too much failing and relapsing most likely.


I did watch the video. I think the reason that so many (of those successful) said it was easy because it was easy for them. If it hadn't been easy, they would be much more likely to be in the 90%+ of people who fail. Some people have very strong willpower and a strong network of people for support. I imagine that that could be a big factor in how easy it is. There are also many quitters who have not been smoking for very long, did not smoke very often while they were smokers, or who were only social smokers. Those people were also likely to say quitting was easy.

To do some rough math: if 53% of those successful said it was easy, and 5-7% were successful in an attempt, 2.7-3.7% of those who attempt to quit found it easy. I'm not using it as an excuse so much as trying to show that it is pretty tough for most smokers to just stop.

Ladywoofwoof wrote:
As for "attempts" to quit smoking, well who even knows what that means.
A lot of people probably go about it in quite a wishy-washy manner.... for all I know they're all like, "Oh, I've giving up smoking now (has a 'last fag' to celebrate) .... (2 hours later) gee, never mind... I'm starting again.


Most smokers I know do not enjoy it and have tried multiple times to quit. There are some who are not serious about quitting, but most are. Quitting is something so difficult for people going through it that it is impossible to convey how insanely hard it is to someone who has not been through it. Have you gone through withdrawals from any kind of substance addiction? I have managed to quit smoking for a while, but to be perfectly honest, it does not really get much easier with time. Quitting drinking was something I was able to do, but it took tremendous effort and led to losing almost every friend I had. I still cannot have alcohol in my house or go to bar & grill places without having to consciously and continuously fight the urge to have a drink, but at least I am now at the point where I don't have to race past the beer aisle in the store anymore.

Ladywoofwoof wrote:

Have you ever worked with a doctor's support to quit smoking fags ?


I have indeed. The medications and the therapy sessions were recommendations from physicians, as was the patch.

I think the big message I am trying to get across is that while there are many smokers out there who are inconsiderate and downright rude about it, you should not judge all smokers based on the actions of some of them. The most considerate smokers are not going to do it around people who don't smoke and usually do not smoke in public, which is why so many assume that all smokers are the kind of turds that even many smokers abhor.


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Last edited by sonofghandi on 07 Nov 2013, 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

sonofghandi
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07 Nov 2013, 12:31 pm

Asperger96 wrote:
What I don't understand: I see parents BUYING cigarettes for their TEENAGERS

WTF?


That is something that really pisses me off. If my neighbors mom hadn't been perfectly willing to pick up as many smokes as we wanted whenever she went to the store, perhaps I would not be the addict that I am today.


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sonofghandi
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07 Nov 2013, 12:32 pm

Moviefan2k4 wrote:
I also think its good manners for people who smoke to do so outdoors, unless the weather's too cold for it.


I do not make an exception for cold weather. If you are going to smoke, you should not be inconveniencing others just for your comfort.


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07 Nov 2013, 12:34 pm

Fnord wrote:
It's exemplary of the fact that smokers have no compassion for others; when was the last time you saw a non-smoker light up in a room where infants were sleeping? How often do non-smokers throw their cigarette butts onto the ground where children play (beaches, parks, playgrounds, et cetera)? How many non-smokers blow smoke from their lungs into other people's faces?

No ... it's the smokers who have no compassion for others; only concern for themselves and their precious "rights".


I have tonnes of compassion for others and I have never done any of those things you mentioned. I only smoke in my own garden or in side streets and I throw the butts away properly.

I have a history of mental illness. That's not a reason to push my self-destructive behaviour on others, so I don't. My loved ones will be upset if I get cancer, so that's why I plan to quit when I lose some more weight. I'm not using the weight thing as an excuse so much as it's a practical thing - if I were to quit now, I would become an even more unhealthy weight, which wouldn't do much for my longevity, either.

You can think I'm stupid, irresponsible, self-destructive, lack willpower, disgusting, etc...but the idea that I have no compassion for others is false. It's a moral judgment too far and one that's made based on people who have nothing in common with me except they have the same addiction.


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07 Nov 2013, 12:49 pm

Ladywoofwoof wrote:
I doubt it, but are there any statistics on that ?

http://www.ash.org.uk/files/documents/ASH_121.pdf

Cost of smoking related illnesses for the NHS: £2.7 billion
Taxes raised from cigarettes excluding VAT: £9.5 billion
Including VAT: £12.1 billion

So if everyone stopped smoking, but still spent that money on taxable goods, the government would be £6.8 billion out of pocket.

That document rightly points to some other factors to be considered (the costs of cleaning up cigarette butts, the costs of accidental fires, the cost of looking after the elderly who don't smoke, the cost of cigarette breaks), but the government and particularly the NHS seem to benefit from smokers.



Ladywoofwoof
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07 Nov 2013, 1:01 pm

MissLizard wrote:
I have native blood,people are suppose to bring me tobacco when they visit.Its a tradition. :lol:



Well, if you want them to bring you tobacco then I guess they'll do that.
:shrug:

Tradition is often the name given to behaviour which is repeated across generations or within societies for no particular reason, rather than the people involved choosing to do anything new instead.



sonofghandi wrote:
To do some rough math: if 53% of those successful said it was easy, and 5-7% were successful in an attempt, 2.7-3.7% of those who attempt to quit found it easy.



What on earth are you even talking about ?
That's some incredibly sketchy mathematics right there.

The guy surveyed people who had quit smoking, and 53% of them said that it wasn't very difficult.
How you manage to reduce that down to 2.7 - 3.7 % just because some smokers keep on giving up is beyond me.

You haven't even watched that video, have you ?
I know you haven't, because if you had then you wouldn't be coming up with such a comment.

If you don't even feel inclined to spend 12 minutes watching a video called "The single most important thing you can do to quit smoking" (which was made by a doctor who specialises in supporting people to quit smoking fags) then... well..... you know.... that's a pretty telling thing.
;-) Just saying....

I would say that in general your approach to smoking seems fairly considerate, though.

I suggest that you refrain from assuming that there is no feasible way i could possible understand substance withdrawal symptoms.
Not everybody who has been addicted to a substance continues to use it.
Many people get through withdrawal, and go on to enjoy the remainder of their life free of their addiction.
And, some of them have had a hell of a time of it... with some experiences being at least as bad as tobacco smoking withdrawal seems to be.
It seems to me that the easiest way to quit using a drug is to make it as unavailable as possible, and do your best not to buy it in the first place.



pete1061
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07 Nov 2013, 1:07 pm

Ladywoofwoof wrote:
Relevant topic :
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postxf212429-0-30.html

Generally speaking they strike me as stupid, selfish, stinky, unattractive, hostile, antisocial extreme addicts with barely any willpower - who don't care about their own health, or the health of those around them. They often strike me as people who have far more money than sense, a limited ability to behave like adults and behave reasonably, and they are a constant drain of NHS resources which could be used to help people who deserve it more.

They frequently seem a bit chavvy, when you see them lurking about puffing away on fags in public.... and many of them do this right next to no smoking signs (especially outside hospitals, where they will sit there looking like they're about to die of Cancer while puffing away on fags in no smoking areas like moronic selfish arses) ... it can be impossible to get a bit of oxygen after having a process done at a hospital because there's no air conditioning or air-flow inside... and as soon as you get outside there are a million smokers puffing away.

They also seem like people who don't deal with life issues (such as stress) in a relevant and pro-active way... choosing instead to take addictive drugs frequently (in the form of fags) ; thus increasing their overall stress by choosing to perpetuate an addiction which increases noradrenaline levels. Then they talk crap about how smoking allegedly calms them down.... which is like saying that heroine is relaxing, since taking it calms the addict frenzy which junkies feel if they don't take it for a while.

Generally, they seem to not care about their own health... and not care about making the people around them ill, either.

They frequently don't care about polluting the environment either.... littering all sorts of places with their mangy fag butts and stinking up the air around them.

They also sometimes lie like politicians... claiming that they've given up smoking, when actually they have done nothing of the sort.


Kraichgauer wrote:
If anything, I feel sorry for smokers having such a terrible addiction that will take them away from their loved ones way too soon.


Well, I reckon that it's the loved ones who suffer the longest because of them doing that.
Sure, Cancer is a horrible way to die.... but once they're dead, they're gone.
It's their friends and family who are left behind with a void where the smoker used to be.

... and it's especially lame if their friends/family have been trying to get them to stop smoking for ages, and being told stuff like "shut up. Smoking is doing me no harm. I won't die of Cancer. I'd know if I had Cancer. I don't care if me smoking is making you ill. " (which relates to smokers being delusional about the effects of their decision, selfish, and also a bit stupid) ... which was what happened to me, when my dad smoked himself to death from Cancer.

Everybody who smokes has made a conscious decision to start.
And, it's not exactly top secret hidden knowledge that smoking fags becomes addictive when people keep on choosing to do it for a while.
:shrug: There's really no sensible reason to start.... so it seems like a very telling thing when people make that decision.

I think more tax should be added to fag costs / tobacco etc.... because there's no good reason why anybody else should be forced to subsidise smokers' medical costs through generalised taxation. They should also automatically go to the bottom of the list when waiting for lung transplants and the like, so that people who deserve it more (due to not making the decision to ruin their lungs in the first place, and being unlikely to do so with the new set as son as the operation is over) are treated first. Because let's face it.... generally speaking, smokers are incredibly likely to get started on wrecking the new set of lungs as soon as possible.... sometimes before they've even finished their hospital stay !

Of course, there are exceptions to what I've been saying. If people smoke on their own (not affecting their kids, etc) in their house or some other smoker's house, then change their clothes - and don't just walk about with hair/clothes/breath smelling like an old ashtray which has never been emptied, then that's a lot more reasonable and less disgusting than the majority of smokers seem to be. Similarly, if people live in areas with only private healthcare or else don't smoke like a factory reekhouse until they need an operation, and don't cough and splutter all over other people constantly, then that's more considerate towards others than the kind of smokers who thoughtlessly guzzle up NHS resources in order to mop up the damage caused by their chosen heavy addiction... and who just cough and spit up phlegm wherever they go.


:evil: :evil: :evil:
You are why I continue to smoke. Just to piss folks like you off.


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Ladywoofwoof
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07 Nov 2013, 1:20 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Ladywoofwoof wrote:
I doubt it, but are there any statistics on that ?

http://www.ash.org.uk/files/documents/ASH_121.pdf

Cost of smoking related illnesses for the NHS: £2.7 billion
Taxes raised from cigarettes excluding VAT: £9.5 billion
Including VAT: £12.1 billion

So if everyone stopped smoking, but still spent that money on taxable goods, the government would be £6.8 billion out of pocket.

That document rightly points to some other factors to be considered (the costs of cleaning up cigarette butts, the costs of accidental fires, the cost of looking after the elderly who don't smoke, the cost of cigarette breaks), but the government and particularly the NHS seem to benefit from smokers.




That's an "interesting" interpretation of the statistics....

What they actually say is :

ASH wrote:
Cost to society
Research commissioned by ASH in 2010 has shown that the cost to the NHS of treating diseases caused by smoking is approximately £2.7 billion a year.6 Another study put the estimated cost as high as £5.2 billion.7 A report by the Policy Exchange in 2010 estimated the total cost to society of smoking to be £13.74 billion. This includes the £2.7bn cost to the NHS but also the loss in productivity from smoking breaks (£2.9bn) and increased absenteeism (£2.5bn). Other costs include: cleaning up cigarette butts (£342 million), the cost of fires (£507m), the loss of economic output from the death of smokers (£4.1bn) and passive smokers (£713m).


So, a study [referenced below] put the estimated cost at £ 5.2 billion.

And, the Policy Exchange estimated the total cost to society to be £13.74 billion.

Since fag taxes exc VAT are only £9.5 bn.....

Then it seems that actually, if everyone stopped smoking, but still spent that money on taxable goods - then the government (or society in general, ie employers of smokers) would be £4.24 billion better off.
That's money which could be spent on public services such as the NHS.

This is just more questionable smoker maths in your reply, from what I can tell .... because according to the estimates which you quoted yourself.... well, it looks like fag prices could use a bit of a hike if fag taxes are going to cover the cost of smokers to society.

I note that these statistics which you mentioned are now years out of date, but I doubt that smokers are financially pulling their weight much more now, than they were 3 years ago.
Any smoker who feels that smokers are a benefit to "the government" (and especially to the NHS) seriously needs to think long and hard about why they have taken such a notion, I reckon. They're certainly not a benefit to the people who're footing their bill in taxation.... that's for sure !



* Allender, S. The burden of smoking-related ill health in the UK. Tobacco Control, 2009; 18: 262-267.



Last edited by Ladywoofwoof on 07 Nov 2013, 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

pete1061
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07 Nov 2013, 1:30 pm

Give it up doglady, smoking will never go away!


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Ladywoofwoof
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07 Nov 2013, 1:32 pm

pete1061 wrote:
:evil: :evil: :evil:
You are why I continue to smoke. Just to piss folks like you off.


No, the reason for why you continue to smoke is because you lack the motivation / will-power to stop.

The reason you're claiming that "I am the reason why you continue to smoke" is because you have immature thought processes and are failing to take responsibility for your own decision to start smoking, and your evident failure to quit your obvious addiction.

You are clearly keen to try and deflect responsibility for this decision onto others by claiming an antisocial and belligerent reason for continuing... but the fact of it is that you have a weakness of character which caused you to decide to start smoking in the first place, and which has prevented you from quitting.
You are most likely trying to take the hatred which you feel towards yourself (because of this) out on other people, by being an antisocial smoker.

If you wish to ruin your health and finances while hastening your own death for deflective antisocial reasons, rather than behaving like a grown-ass man and facing up to your choice to smoke fags from a sensible perspective, then be my guest. I wish you every success on your chosen life path.



pete1061
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07 Nov 2013, 1:39 pm

F----U B----!


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Ladywoofwoof
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07 Nov 2013, 1:45 pm

pete1061 wrote:
F----U B----!


Quote:
Give it up doglady, smoking will never go away!




Your foul mouthed outburst just makes you look like uneducated trash, you know.
It's not my fault that you're too feeble-minded and immature to even take responsibility for your own addiction.

In case you hadn't noticed, smoking indoors in public places has in fact gone away.... in my country, and many parts of your own.
Perhaps smoking in public will be banned altogether, eventually.
And there will be nothing which your potty mouth can do about it, if that does happen.
:thumleft:



pete1061
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07 Nov 2013, 1:48 pm

I don't care, Cu-T!! !


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