Ranting-pro bush/Christian

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Actually, that's not true. For the majority of gays and lesbians, nothing is wrong with their plumbing or apparatus (I'll get to the exceptions in a moment). It is incorrrect to say that they *cannot* just as it would incorrect to say that I *cannot* engage in lesbian sex if I so chose.

I know a number of gays, lesbians, and bisexuals who have had children. For the gay men in particular, they soemtimes do try
to be straight first, marry, have kids and see that it just isn't working before they finally resign themselves to the reality that they are gay whether they wanted to be or not. In at least one case, the guy still loved and cared about his wife, and they remained very good friends, there was no animosity or hatred between them...it was simply that he was gay and neither of them could help that.

So yes, they can procreate. There are also many genetic differences which are recessive, i.e. the gene can still be passed on. In the case of a disease such as hemophilia, even though those with it may have the aa (recessive) and not survive to adulthood, their sisters can still and may well carry Aa (the dominant gene is there so the girl isnt a hemophiliac but she is carrying the gene). If she mates with a man who is also Aa, they have a 25% chance of having a child who is aa, even thoguh neither of them are manifesting the gene outwardly.

I am certain that not all gay men and women are that way genetically. It can be from abuse or trauma, or perhaps other reasons we don't know about. I don't think anyone ever wakes up one day and decides to be gay just because it'd be fun.

Now, about the exceptions. Yeah, what about them? What about the intersex babies who have enter this world with genitals that are neither male nor female? I suppose you think that they should just go through life lonely and celibate? Or marry only each other? If there's a God and he wouldn't want these people to have sex, and he doesn't make mistakes, well, why did he make them?

If there's a god who doesn't approve of abortions, why does he create babies who die at birth or who have almost no brain at all and will die within a week? I think you woudl say it's wrong to abort such babies. The parents should hold their dying child and be just as traumatized as they possibly can?
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I'd like to hear some logic now, and not bible verses or bigoted rhetoric.

Bec, I can answer some of those questions for Kitsune

People are born with knowledge of God's existence. People rationalize away His existence put of pride, arrogance, convenience, a desire not to feel guilty about immoral behaviors and countless other reasons.
People who believe they are about to die have noting left to gain from such delusionsand usually make some attempt to face their disbelief and
"get right with God".





Jesus was giving the Parasees a rhetorical reply. What he was telling them was "you are a bunch of hypocrites who have comitted fornication yourselves and have no right to stone her".



It would be presumtuous to say auhoriatively where he is because such judgment is reserved for God alone. However, there are references (some more obscure than others) in the Bible to a number of places where people are awaiting final judgment (some of which are described metapohorically) such as Hades, Sheol, The Outer Darkness, and The Sea.

I'll respond to the rest of these later if I have time.

I've said it multiple times, maybe you haven't read it, IF YOU DON'T BACK UP WHAT YOU ARE SAYING WITH REFERENCES OR SOURCES THEN WHAT YOU SAY CANNOT BE VALIDATED

Oh? Actually, you want me to be banned because I'm making it too hard for you to reply disproving what I believe, I want to know the truth and I find that having my views critisized helps me to find out what the truth is. I haven't found one thing disproving Christianity posted here, only "You're wrong."




First and foremost, I will respond in kind to what you post. This is the politics, philosophy, and religion thread. If you cannot take what I am posting you are VERY welcome not to read it, otherwise, don't threaten people that are friends with the site owner.

No, I will NOT tolerate your religion if the definition of tolerance is to sit down and let the world go to pieces. I am supposed to teach, and debating is what I do best. Once more, I really don't care if you're an admin, the president of the united states, hitler, madam teresa, or some other figurehead. If you join a debate thread I will indulge you.



Of course, when I'm called a bollocks I will respond. =) I find it respectful to make people think, and I *WANT* to find out if the bible is fallible but I haven't found any proof. First true flaw I find in the bible, I ditch it. No one has presented anything but idle chatter, I want sources from reputable places. Once more, this thread is NOT going to be nicey nice, most debates aren't.



The bible 'hates' no one. Hate is a sin, I disagree STRONGLY with their choice of lifestyle.



Quite frankly, if they understood what marriage was they'd understand that they can not be denied it, as it is a COMMITMENT TO ONE ANOTHER NOT A CONTRACT. Also, they are not reproducing and adding to the united states, so they are not continuing their lineage. Because they have no children to take care of them when they are old they will draw off of government tax dollars.

The tax breaks are primarily for raising children.


I have to confess, I have some confusion about catholicism due to some people marching under the banner as false Catholics. I see a lot of things actually worshipping and idolizing the saints..and why is the pope the head of the church, what's his role?

Man, I have to say, those people needed to be freed regardless of the reason publically made. I don't claim to know everything but I seriously doubt that Bush had anything other then good motives when he declared war on Iraq.



Read this article, once you have please post affirming your view.


http://www.livingwaters.com/witnessingt ... shua.shtml

http://www.livingwaters.com/witnessingt ... hell.shtml

Also, on me being judgemental, this clears it up;
http://www.livingwaters.com/witnessingt ... ught.shtml


The pope doesn't know who they voted for, and I'd like a link to that.

I'll be happy to. Unfortunately this weekend I'll be completely stoned on pain meds so I'd appreciate you waiting until wedsday, I'd love to debate you.



If I was a bigot, I would long have said that you were not worth it. I'd also like to point out that saying that I suck other men who happen to be bigot's sexual organs is highly offensive and you should be careful with your slang.



There's a difference between a harmless fact of life and someone that chooses to do something unnatural.

Hey, if you like stabbing babies, maybe you like stabbing chipmunks? If you'd like I'll post up the procedures involved with abortion, they're in my biology book.



My MSN is Drover3851 via cox.net feel free to attack me on there, though I cannot guarentee my manners.



If you do try to use subtle attacks, I will be glad to report them.



Heh heh, if I am attacked on MSN messenger, or you message me, you agree by sending the first message that I may access your computer using any form I see fit at the moment and that you void all privacy rights, meaning if you do and I block you, and you switch names, I will gladly forcefully remove your AOL instant messenger.

You asked for it.



Oh I'm so glad you did that.

http://www.livingwaters.com/witnessingt ... ible.shtml

http://www.livingwaters.com/witnessingt ... read.shtml

http://www.livingwaters.com/witnessingt ... down.shtml

http://www.livingwaters.com/witnessingt ... ions.shtml

http://www.livingwaters.com/witnessingt ... ions.shtml

http://www.livingwaters.com/witnessingt ... ions.shtml

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/richmen.htm

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/apologet.htm

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/divine.htm

http://www.mag-net.com/~maranath/OLDBEST.HTM

That's enough reading for you.



http://www.livingwaters.com/witnessingt ... twhy.shtml

http://www.livingwaters.com/witnessingt ... nted.shtml

http://www.livingwaters.com/witnessingt ... ring.shtml

Don't make threats unless you can back them up.



All I've seen from you is excessive use of exclamation points and claims coming from someone who knows nothing but what public schools teach. Feel free to post on www.wolvenmoon.com so I can invite some Christian friends on, otherwise, shut up.



I am in the furry community, I am one of the few straight people in it. 95% of all furries are either bisexual or gay. I know gay people, and they will all affirm that it is a choice.



We defied him in the garden of eden, thus a curse was put on this earth. He gave us a chance, has blaring neon signs saying "Over here! This way to heaven! All other roads lead to hell! Please repent! Heaven over here!"

I personally, after giving my own son up in sacrifice to humanity, would find it highly offensive that people choose not to believe me. He is not sending you to hell, you have the rulebook, and if you break the rules you pick hell. It's easy, it's fun, it's affordable, and it doesn't have any nasty sideaffects.



First off and foremost he doesn't require we do anything, he says that we may pick our own fate. There are two to pick. If you do not choose him then you choose satan. Unfortunately these are the only two choices. I don't claim to know God's thinking, but I will say that these are the options available.



Again, it will go down on MY conscious if I don't do everything in my power to stop you. That is talking about judgement, and a previous article I posted explains, in the basic sense, that I'm using the bible to accept God's judgements and share them.

A school test is small in the scheme of things, so is life in eternity. Life's our test. You either pass or fail.



If you commit one sin then you are no longer innocent, just as if you have sex one time you are no longer a virgin. While they may have had good intentions and done good works, they have not accepted God's gift.

Think of it in banking terms, we all have an account with a balance of zero, a sin takes money out. When we're in the negative numbers we go to hell. When we accept Christ and repent, we're given unlimited credit.



There is a verse in the bible, in revelations, that gives me hope.

I can't look it up right now, but it says basically that anyone that has misunderstood the bible will be brought to a gathering and read and explained the bible in full. While I'm not sure where you would wait until then and I'm not sure if I'm right in my interpretation, I really hope that it is true.

A story behind this is, the spanish conquistadors were invading what would become southern america. An indian chief was bound to a stake and the fire was being lit. A priest walked up to him and gave him a chance to repent.

The indian chief said "I do not wish to go any place where there are Christians."

He should not be punished by hell, I don't think he's in hell, but I think he had to accept Christ to get into heaven. That leaves a paradox, eh?

In the end, good deeds do not get you to heaven, nor does faith without works.

As a fundamentalist the bible is the basis for my religion and my religion is an interpretation of the bible. The bible is perfect, though my interpretation may not be. If you ask more questions I may or may not have to search through the bible to provide you with adequate answers.



I must disagree with you, I have heard in some places that there is a gene leading to the INCLINATION to be homosexual. While not MAKING one be homosexual it leads to their having more of a leniance to being homosexual. The gene affects the prostrate gland, I've heard.

There are also some times that the brain is formed as the different gender and the body formed differently. In this case I'm not sure what is right, though I have not seen any publically available cases like this.



Just as apologies mean nothing without true earnest feeling behind them, neither does professing to be Christian.



Need another verse, or can I just quote it.

"Let not a man lay with another man, for the lord finds this an abomination"



It's your choice to commit a sin.



I call BS on that one. I must quote yoda on that one; "Do, or do not, there is no try."



I am TIRED of hearing this arguement, God made them, but as soon as conception starts there is flaw within them. If you're speaking of hermaphrodites there is a definite difference between male and females. Using MRIs and surgery they can usually be fixed.



See above arguement. If the parents care that much and they have spawned a dying child, then they may have a contaminated genepool and thus BOTH should be sterilized...wait...or they could just carry through as MANY doctors have been wrong about me, and there will be many more errors made.


On the guy threatening to make attacks, if he starts I'd like to get Alex's approval for a ban ahead of time. If he's making a good debate then that's great, I'll be glad to talk to him.

Here's a link for you:

http://www.why-can't-one-of-you-bloody- ... -minds.com

I sincerely hope you can offer more than this usual Christian BS post-a-load-of-ready-made-links that you lot always seem to respond with....... You're at a massive enough disadvantage against me as-is without discrediting yourself further with this nonsense, pal..... The Bible is demonstrably horse-crap of the highest order - that is basic, inarguable fact.

Being a friend of Alex does not exempt you from following the rules of this forum - why should you be permitted to deliberately disrespect other members when no one else gets to do it? And could you point out the part of my post where I threatened you please?

Dunc

LOL! Excuse me, but you were the one making personal attacks against me. Until you have the decency to ask a serious question, I'm going to treat you just like what you're acting.

Why do I use articles?

1.Some people can articulate better then I can, thus instead of misleading someone unintentionally I send them to a source that can speak better then I can.

2.Some of the time, when people like you show up, I end up getting tired of dealing with bullcrap and decide to get an already typed up answer so I won't have to deal with you.

3.I can come up with my own answers, if you took the time to read the post in full you would find that someone asked me a good deal of questions from MY perspective. If you want me to answer questions specifically to you you can cut the sarcasm, and ask sincere questions not meant to offend or inflict.

Until you do that, I'd appreciate it if you didn't give the 'all that' response. You are providing zero sources for your claims of the bible's being horse-crap, you're just ranting. If you have proof of the bible being horse-crap, POST IT. I'm waiting to see it.

Next time you make an offensive jab at me without basis or purpose, I will make sure to get you banned for at least a week. Need I read rules for you, or can you do it by yourself? I understand that some aspergers people are naturally offensive without understanding that they are being so, I had the benefits of a social skills class.

You have insulted me at least twice, and twice I have answered. The third time you will be blatantly ignored.

Could you point out the part of my post where I insulted you?

And excuse me, but you seem to be ignoring other people insulting ME, now I understand that people get sore when they lose debates, but you should seriously consider being professional about it.

I do NOT ask to be exempt from the rules, but I ask that you apply them fairly

I think triple posting is appropriate here.

He SHOULD have two warnings under the catagories of insinuation and personal insults. But, it does prove the book of revelations right that unjust persecution of Christians will occur. >=)

Fine. The next personal attack directed at anyone on this thread including Kitsune will be subject to the site disciplinary policy. This includes slurs against their religious beliefs, sexual preference, race, age or gender.

Dunc

Thank you. =P

While I may have a morbid and forboding debate style, this is mainly for FUN and to make people THINK, while conversion is my ultimate goal I don't really expect any of you to go "Oh wow, he's right! I'm dropping everything and converting!" but I do expect you to start thinking about it.

Stay away from this guy ---> <------
^
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'cause he's big, he's nasty, and he hates everything to do with puppies!

I hope this won't be considered a personal attack. I have some other questions:

Why would an all-powerful god become flesh in order to sacrifice himself to himself so that his creation might escape the wrath of himself. Couldn't this god, in his infinite wisdom, come up with something a little more efficient?

It is made clear in the Bible that it is a sin to kill. But look at the story of Noah or of Sodom and Gomorrah. God kills people. Yes, I know he does it because they were sinning, but he still KILLED them. So then God must have committed a sin, correct?

Mosaic Law orders us to kill anyone who worships a different god, kill anyone who worships idols, kill anyone who blasphemes, kill anyone who works on Saturday, kill anyone who dishonors their parents, kill anyone who commits adultery, kill any woman who has sex before marriage, kill anyone who steals a slave, kill anyone who has homosexual sex, and wage genocidal war against any city that allows religious liberty (see Deuteronomy 13.) So why does the Biblical God command people to commit a sin to punish a sin?

For the above query, please do not say what many Christians do about the Old Testament not longer applying. According to Matthew 5:18-19 and Luke 16:17, the law shall always be enforced and it is always valid. The same idea is reinforced again in John 7:19, John 1:17, and John 10:35 stating that 'the laws' ar the ones given by Moses (i.e. the Old Testament).

As for the New Testament promoting people killing others, Mark 7:10 states 'Whoever curses father or mother shall die'. Matthew 15:4-7 says 'He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death' also. So if you follow the law given in the New Testament, why don't you kill disobedient children?

'Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?'
— Epicurus (ca. 341-270 B.C.E.) Greek philosopher

Yeah, originally it was "Live by these rules". In this case he decided to sacrifice someone perfectly innocent, himself, or his son. (There is a theory considered the trinity that I won't go into, PLEASE for the simplicity in this debate accept the answer that as an omnipotent being he can be two things at once.)

The symbolism works well for most people, there may have been another way, but I won't know exactly until I get to heaven.



Thou shalt not kill, you shall not kill, God chooses the hour of death. Death is a punishment for all of mankind, we are not allowed to deal it within ourselves (Vote no on capital punishment, innocent people are dying)



I believe that is old testament, we are told by Christ to spread the word. Also, in the old testament, there are a lot of times that a suffix "For they have chosen death themselves" appears.



Death isn't neccasarily the end of life on earth, but damnation to hell. Although I believe ALL sins can be repented of.



In genesis the fall of man is recorded, we picked evil and God has let us, in our free will, reap the rewards of that decision made by our ancestors.



He gave us free will, once more, that is the decision that humanity made.

Allow me to bring in a link to better explain.

http://www.livingwaters.com/witnessingt ... ewhy.shtml

That halfway answers it, and adds a bit of depth to it. This one hits it on the head.
http://www.livingwaters.com/witnessingt ... twhy.shtml

'Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.' (2 Peter 20-21)

If you follow 2 Peter 20-21, then Bible verses must be taken literally. So when they say they punishment is death it is death.

If you choose to leave it up to interpretation, then children who disobey their parents must go to hell. According to Christian beliefs, if a person accepts Jesus as their saviour and repents, they go to heaven. If a person doesn't, they go to hell anyway. So what is the point of Mark 7:10 and Matthew 15:4-7? There is no need for it.

To your first point, forgiveness requires repentence.
Second, there are lots of other sins that are not listed in the verse I posted. Some of those other sins not listed I have been guilty of. But unlike the homosexuals (and relativists,for that matter), I can admit that I sin, and I will admit when I am in need of forgiveness for my sins.



You cannot 'save souls' unless they want to be saved. You can only express your case for Christianity, the problems with other world views,
and let people decide whether or not to accept it.



Apparently, all views and lifestyles are considered equally valid here except those that don't believe all views and lifestyles are equally valid. Quite the paradox.

I don't think that's true, Sean. It's just people discussing their beliefs. It just so happens that most people here disagree with your views. People can disagree while still being accepting of each other's beliefs.

Exactly. Death is defined in the bible as damnation.



Explain how cursing your parents, as in willing harm to come to them and NOT REPENTING, and disobeying?

We disobey God, though Christ pays for that. He is our heavenly father, if we disobey our living parents it is STILL a sin but it is STILL paid for in full.



Of course. It's common amoung people who don't want to face the truth to become angered at people who assert the truth. If the first amendment is to be held and kept, the Christian religion says to teach and teach we must.