When did you grow weary of Capitalists?

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1024
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07 Jul 2014, 6:20 pm

RushKing wrote:

Here's a study for you:

http://works.bepress.com/cgi/viewconten ... ich_kaiser

No decrease in productivity as a result of horizontalism.

I haven't read the study, but I admit management by workers may work, I don't know. I suspect the principal problem will be capital. Outside investors won't invest in companies where they don't have a say in the management: the workers will obviously vote not to give any profits to the investors. So the company would have to be worker-owned too. So you would have to find hundreds or more people who all want to work at the new company, and who also all have the money to invest in the company, and actually want to invest their money in that company, even knowing that they can't sell their shares while working there. And when someone leaves or is fired, they have to find somebody who wants to work there, and also buy his share. And repeat the same process when they want to raise capital to expand their company.

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Kurgan
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07 Jul 2014, 6:55 pm

1024 wrote:

Kurgan wrote:

Socialism is still the dominant system in both Africa and Asia.

The dominant system in poor countries are crony capitalism, and systems based on private capital but without strong rule of law, property rights, freedom of trade etc. that are the basis of actual capitalism.

http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

Even the capitalist dictatorships (exclusively Arab countries) have a high standard of living.

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07 Jul 2014, 9:13 pm

1024 wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

They can go to other jobs in theory. But the fact remains, there are finite numbers of jobs, and not everyone can have them. Most people can't just quit their job out of the blue and expect to find one in short order. And finally, that competition keeping wages high only works if businesses don't collude together to keep wages low and benefits non-existent.

The number of jobs is not fixed: in the times of subsistence economy >90% worked in agriculture, while now about 5% of people do their jobs, and the others work in jobs that did not exist at that time.
Also, when Western countries outsource jobs to Asia, they will pay them; they will eventually use that money to buy products from Western countries (assuming no trade imbalance). In Western countries new jobs will be created in the areas where the Asians buy from us.
Of course the new jobs are not created overnight; because of this the government may take steps to slow the changes down if necessary, but it shouldn't halt them in my opinion.

Collusion is realistic in markets where there are few companies and high barriers to entering the market, such as internet service providers or specialist manufacturers. In a big city there are dozens of big companies and thousands of small ones, from all kinds of sectors, that need unskilled workers. They would all have to somehow agree, and check that the others keep the agreement, and keep new competitors from entering the market. Collusions are not realistic in the unskilled labor market.

Sure, maybe Asian countries will buy American product some day, but some day isn't getting here fast enough, as that process is going at glacier speed.
And as far as it being unlikely for low paying employers to collude against the interests of their workers - tell that to fast food workers, who are all receiving the same starvation wages, regardless of which companies they work for.

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1024
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08 Jul 2014, 12:15 pm

Kurgan wrote:

http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking
Even the capitalist dictatorships (exclusively Arab countries) have a high standard of living.

This ranking measures "true" capitalism, with property rights, various freedoms etc. I think poor countries are largely based on private capital too. Socialists typically support high government spending, while in most poor countries that's actually relatively low.

Kraichgauer wrote:

Sure, maybe Asian countries will buy American product some day, but some day isn't getting here fast enough, as that process is going at glacier speed.

China exported $2.21 trillion last year and imported $1.95 trillion (from Wikipedia). It did export more, but it's not like it didn't import. You could say that (say) 10 Chinese workers' wages would be needed to support one American worker with their imports, but 10 Chinese workers also only supplant about one American worker, so that's not a problem.
Every electronic gadget you buy says "made in China". But it was just assembled there and shipped to the US from there. It was designed in Western countries by Western engineers, and most parts are also manufactured in other countries and shipped to China for assembly. When a Chinese person buys a gadget, that counts mostly as an import for China.

Kraichgauer wrote:

And as far as it being unlikely for low paying employers to collude against the interests of their workers - tell that to fast food workers, who are all receiving the same starvation wages, regardless of which companies they work for.

That doesn't prove collusion; more likely that kind of work, and unskilled work in general, simply has low producivity.
Note that in order to drive wages down, fast food chains would not only need to agree with each other, but also with independent fast food places (I don't know the US but there are plenty in Europe) and other employers of unskilled workers.

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Kraichgauer
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08 Jul 2014, 12:24 pm

1024 wrote:

Kurgan wrote:

http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking
Even the capitalist dictatorships (exclusively Arab countries) have a high standard of living.

Kraichgauer wrote:

Sure, maybe Asian countries will buy American product some day, but some day isn't getting here fast enough, as that process is going at glacier speed.

Kraichgauer wrote:

Just because that "made in China" gadget is designed in the west hardly means that makes any difference to the pay checks of workers in America or any other western country.
And low productivity? Almost every fast food worker I've ever know, or observed, busted their ass to get the job done. A definite reason why fast food workers should get far better pay is because such low skilled service jobs are the only employment available to a great many Americans anymore. Those service jobs that were supposed to replac manufacturing have proven to be an economic mudhole for Americans.

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1024
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08 Jul 2014, 2:34 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

Just because that "made in China" gadget is designed in the west hardly means that makes any difference to the pay checks of workers in America or any other western country.

It does make a difference in the pay checks of Americans who are engineers.

Kraichgauer wrote:

And low productivity? Almost every fast food worker I've ever know, or observed, busted their ass to get the job done. A definite reason why fast food workers should get far better pay is because such low skilled service jobs are the only employment available to a great many Americans anymore. Those service jobs that were supposed to replac manufacturing have proven to be an economic mudhole for Americans.

Hard work does not mean high producivity. With the classical example of IIRC Adam Smith, assume you dig a hole as big as you can for a year with hard work, fill it in next year, dig it again the following year etc. for no good reason. No matter how hard you work, it doesn't have a high value, and you are not entitled to a high wage for it (or any wage for that matter). Similarly, in my opionion, if your work is useful but only a little, you are only entitled to a little wage for it.

As for the collusion: whether higher wages would be desirable, or whether they deserve higher wages in one sense or another, has nothing to do with whether the low wages are the result of collusion.

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Kraichgauer
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08 Jul 2014, 2:41 pm

1024 wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Just because that "made in China" gadget is designed in the west hardly means that makes any difference to the pay checks of workers in America or any other western country.

It does make a difference in the pay checks of Americans who are engineers.

Kraichgauer wrote:

Most Americans aren't engineers.
And who says what fast food workers do isn't important? People have to eat, don't they?

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drh1138
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08 Jul 2014, 3:06 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

And who says what fast food workers do isn't important? People have to eat, don't they?

The consumers do. If they valued fast food more, they'd be willing to pay more.

1024
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08 Jul 2014, 3:10 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

Most Americans aren't engineers.
And who says what fast food workers do isn't important? People have to eat, don't they?

Many Westerners have various skilled jobs that few Chinese can do, and that the Chinese buy from us in various forms. Again, there is some trade imbalance between Western and developing Asian countries, the latter export to the former more than they import, but the difference is somewhere around 10%; it's not like they don't import from us.
Food is important, but higher wages would mean higher prices at the restaurants (assuming competition, which I still see no reason not to assume), which would make people would rather cook at home.

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08 Jul 2014, 3:46 pm

drh1138 wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

And who says what fast food workers do isn't important? People have to eat, don't they?

The consumers do. If they valued fast food more, they'd be willing to pay more.

I'm willing to pay a little more. Most people, I think, are sympathetic to the plight of fast food workers.

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08 Jul 2014, 3:48 pm

1024 wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Most Americans aren't engineers.
And who says what fast food workers do isn't important? People have to eat, don't they?

But the country is all the stronger when all Americans can buy the products they produce. I see it as an investment in the country to give better pay with benefits to all American workers.

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08 Jul 2014, 6:31 pm

/\ I'd like to see most all of our stuff made in the USA but I think it's too late for that. We gotta start thinking outside the box and figure out how to make lemonade out of the lemons we've unwillingly inherited. People arent going to take well to having to pay $2000 for an American made TV all the sudden that used to cost $600 when it was made in China. When people stop buying stuff we're back to square one. I myself can keep using my TV until it falls apart but I'm not everyone.

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08 Jul 2014, 8:03 pm

Raptor wrote:

My God, there must be a blue moon! Because I find myself agreeing with you! :lol:

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08 Jul 2014, 9:16 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

Raptor wrote:

My God, there must be a blue moon! Because I find myself agreeing with you! :lol:

That's a surprise

I thought it might go more like this:

I wrote:

I'd like to see most all of our stuff made in the USA but I think it's too late for that.

You should have wrote:

Well you can thank your repugnican politicians and big businessmen whose boots you enjoy licking for sending all those jobs to Asia, Raptor! (< shuddering with rage)

I wrote:

We gotta start thinking outside the box and figure out how to make lemonade out of the lemons we've unwillingly inherited.

You should have wrote:

For a conservative like you I imagine that means going back to an agrarian economy and society with plenty of work for the darker skinned types your party despises so much! (<more anger)

I wrote:

People arent going to take well to having to pay $2000 for an American made TV all the sudden that used to cost $600 when it was made in China. When people stop buying stuff we're back to square one.

You should have wrote:

Then the government will FORCE them to buy a new TV every year and it'll cost a helluva lot more than $2000 when you factor in that the manufacturers, the greedy bastards, will be FORCED to pay a starting wage of 60k a year with quarterly raises to the lowest paid employee, and buy them new a 4 bedroom, 2 1/2 bath, 2 car garage house with a heated pool, and send their kids to college. (bangs fist on the cyber table to drive the point home like any good progressive)

I wrote:

I myself can keep using my TV until it falls apart but I'm not everyone.

You should have wrote:

I'm surprised that a repugnican like you that profits from big business at taxpayer expense doesn't buy a new TV for each room of your mansion every six months.

And instead of:

Quote:

My God, there must be a blue moon! Because I find myself agreeing with you! :lol:

It should be more like:

Quote:

I'd die a trillion painful deaths before I agree with you on ANYTHING!

There, didnt just reading that make you feel better than agreeing with me? :flower:

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Kraichgauer
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08 Jul 2014, 10:14 pm

Raptor wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Raptor wrote:

My God, there must be a blue moon! Because I find myself agreeing with you! :lol:

That's a surprise

I thought it might go more like this:

I wrote:

I'd like to see most all of our stuff made in the USA but I think it's too late for that.

You should have wrote:

Well you can thank your repugnican politicians and big businessmen whose boots you enjoy licking for sending all those jobs to Asia, Raptor! (< shuddering with rage)

I wrote:

We gotta start thinking outside the box and figure out how to make lemonade out of the lemons we've unwillingly inherited.

You should have wrote:

For a conservative like you I imagine that means going back to an agrarian economy and society with plenty of work for the darker skinned types your party despises so much! (<more anger)

I wrote:

People arent going to take well to having to pay $2000 for an American made TV all the sudden that used to cost $600 when it was made in China. When people stop buying stuff we're back to square one.

You should have wrote:

I wrote:

I myself can keep using my TV until it falls apart but I'm not everyone.

You should have wrote:

I'm surprised that a repugnican like you that profits from big business at taxpayer expense doesn't buy a new TV for each room of your mansion every six months.

And instead of:

Quote:

My God, there must be a blue moon! Because I find myself agreeing with you! :lol:

It should be more like:

Quote:

I'd die a trillion painful deaths before I agree with you on ANYTHING!

There, didnt just reading that make you feel better than agreeing with me? :flower:

Aw, you just don't all the intricacies that go into being me. :lol:

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09 Jul 2014, 8:27 am

/\That was a compilation of all the angry liberal personalities we have and have had in recent years.

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