debtor's prisons are back

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zer0netgain
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04 Aug 2014, 6:48 pm

sonofghandi wrote:

It is not voluntary. Reporting your earnings is mandatory.

The IRS would disagree....and therein lies their duplicity.

Nobody "forces" you to do anything, but if you are required to do something, you are being forced to do it.

Your taxes are based on what you "voluntarily" report to the IRS...but they say you have to report or face penalties.

Then, it's not "voluntary," is it?

sonofghandi
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05 Aug 2014, 8:49 am

zer0netgain wrote:

sonofghandi wrote:

It is not voluntary. Reporting your earnings is mandatory.

I have never said that it was not required, only that you will not go to prison for refusing to pay taxes as long as you file an accurate return.

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ZenDen
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05 Aug 2014, 4:16 pm

sonofghandi wrote:

zer0netgain wrote:

sonofghandi wrote:

It is not voluntary. Reporting your earnings is mandatory.

I have never said that it was not required, only that you will not go to prison for refusing to pay taxes as long as you file an accurate return.

But the phrase "accurate return" means "what the IRS wants", and you must agree to pay them what THEY decide is correct (not you), and if you do not you will be incarcerated. They will call it tax fraud or filing a fraudulent return but regardless, and your next address, for not paying them what they wish, will be Federal prison.

sonofghandi
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06 Aug 2014, 11:25 am

ZenDen wrote:

Let me try to explain this better. If you file an accurate tax return, showing exactly the amount of taxes you owe the IRS, and then refuse to pay that amount, you will not go to prison. You will be fined for failure to pay and they will get their cash one way or another, but you will not go to prison.

So if you refuse to pay your taxes on principle, you should still file an accurate tax return (a 1040 for most people). You will end up giving the IRS more money in the long run, but you would not be voluntarily paying taxes and you would not go to prison.

If you refuse to file a return (and make more than $10K in a year if you are single), under report your earnings, take false deductions or credits, or file under someone else's SSN, then you will be charged with tax fraud, and then you may face some prison time.

Even if you filed an accurate return but do not have enough assets and quit your job to live on the street to avoid paying so they will not imprison you. You would keep adding penalties and interest, though, which they will end up taking from you if you ever decide to not be homeless, get a job, or try to collect any government benefits.

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ZenDen
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08 Aug 2014, 12:07 pm

sonofghandi wrote:

ZenDen wrote:

\\

Let me try to explain this to you differently.

You say: "If you file an accurate tax return, showing exactly the amount of taxes you owe the IRS, and then refuse to pay that amount, you will not go to prison. You will be fined for failure to pay and they will get their cash one way or another, but you will not go to prison."

And I say: "But the phrase "accurate return" means "what the IRS wants", and you must agree to pay them what THEY decide is correct (not you), and if you do not you will be incarcerated. "

What this means: It means YOU (and your tax accountant?) may have calculated your taxes correctly. But if the IRS calculates your owed taxes differently and comes up with a larger number you will be forced to pay the IRS the amount it says you owe, and if you refuse YOU WILL GO TO FEDERAL PRISON.

All you continue to say is that a tax filer must agree with the IRS, and submit to their interpretations. This discussion presupposes you do not. Is this understandable?

sonofghandi
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11 Aug 2014, 6:58 am

ZenDen wrote:

All you continue to say is that a tax filer must agree with the IRS, and submit to their interpretations. This discussion presupposes you do not. Is this understandable?

I understand what you are saying. I am just saying that the filer can agree with the amount owed and refuse to pay and will not be imprisoned (even if you disagree with whether you should have to pay). Is that understandable?

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zer0netgain
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12 Aug 2014, 4:59 am

sonofghandi wrote:

ZenDen wrote:

All you continue to say is that a tax filer must agree with the IRS, and submit to their interpretations. This discussion presupposes you do not. Is this understandable?

Maybe I'm no expert, but last I checked, if you refused to pay taxes, the IRS could make your life bad enough that you would be better off in prison. At least in prison the state would be obligated to take care of you.

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12 Aug 2014, 8:49 am

zer0netgain wrote:

Maybe I'm no expert, but last I checked, if you refused to pay taxes, the IRS could make your life bad enough that you would be better off in prison.

That is 100% accurate.

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ZenDen
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12 Aug 2014, 12:04 pm

sonofghandi wrote:

ZenDen wrote:

All you continue to say is that a tax filer must agree with the IRS, and submit to their interpretations. This discussion presupposes you do not. Is this understandable?

"I understand what you are saying. I am just saying that the filer can agree with the amount owed"?????

This is a discussion about people who refuse to pay what they deem is incorrect, and are jailed for their beliefs. Stay on track.

We're here. ".....and submit to their interpretations. This discussion presupposes you do not."

The discussion is NOT how to stay out of jail. It is a discussion about the IRS putting you in jail if you do NOT pay them the amount they wish.
If you do NOT pay them what they wish you WILL be going to jail. This means you CAN be put in jail under those circumstances. If you try to withhold and not pay you will be jailed.

Can't you understand? 1. YOU send in your return. 2. The IRS says you made a mistake and wants more. 3.You say you didn't make a mistake you won't pay more. 4. You go to jail (assuming everything the IRS confiscated didn't pay the whole bill).

And every year this happens to many people. Just ask Will Smith.

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13 Aug 2014, 9:35 am

ZenDen wrote:

Let me make this as clear as possible:

1. You file a tax return claiming all income you received.
2. The tax return ends up with a dollar amount that the IRS deems you owe by law.
3. You refuse to pay.
4. The IRS will try to find a way that you committed tax fraud.
5. If your return was 100%, you will not go to prison. Period.
6. The IRS will take your money and assets. And not send you to jail.

ZenDen wrote:

It is a discussion about the IRS putting you in jail if you do NOT pay them the amount they wish.
If you do NOT pay them what they wish you WILL be going to jail. This means you CAN be put in jail under those circumstances. If you try to withhold and not pay you will be jailed.

And all I am saying is that if you follow the letter of the law up until the point of actually transferring money voluntarily to the IRS, your penalties will not include prison time.

ZenDen wrote:

Can't you understand? 1. YOU send in your return. 2. The IRS says you made a mistake and wants more. 3.You say you didn't make a mistake you won't pay more. 4. You go to jail (assuming everything the IRS confiscated didn't pay the whole bill).

You will go to jail if your tax return is incorrect and you refuse to pay. You would not go to jail if you file an ammended return correcting the amount owed and then refusing to pay.

ZenDen wrote:

And every year this happens to many people. Just ask Will Smith.

This was not a federal tax case and he did not go to a federal prison. States and localities can do pretty much whatever the h*ll they want in regards to tax law.

All I am doing is setting the record straight for a very specific set of circumstances. If you want to refuse to pay your federal taxes on principle, you will pay more (because they will just take it), but you can avoid jail time if you precisely follow the law in all regards other than actual payment.

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ZenDen
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13 Aug 2014, 11:47 am

You keep trying to frame the discussion in a way that will prove you right.

The question was whether you can be jailed for not paying a debt the government claims you owe.

It has been shown indeed you can go to jail.

No one cares if it's not true in your cherry-picked instance.

sonofghandi
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14 Aug 2014, 7:24 am

ZenDen wrote:

No one cares if it's not true in your cherry-picked instance.

Apparently you do, as I have quite clearly stated from the beginning the circumstances in question while you continue to say it is untrue.

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ZenDen
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14 Aug 2014, 11:56 am

sonofghandi wrote:

ZenDen wrote:

No one cares if it's not true in your cherry-picked instance.

Apparently you do, as I have quite clearly stated from the beginning the circumstances in question while you continue to say it is untrue.

sonofghandi
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14 Aug 2014, 12:05 pm

ZenDen wrote:

sonofghandi wrote:

ZenDen wrote:

No one cares if it's not true in your cherry-picked instance.

Apparently you do, as I have quite clearly stated from the beginning the circumstances in question while you continue to say it is untrue.

I'm sorry you can't seem to stay on subject. Ignoring someone's comments is not a debate method.

If you think this is a valid discussion/debate technique for you then enjoy yourself.

"You keep trying to frame the discussion in a way that will prove you right.

The question was whether you can be jailed for not paying a debt the government claims you owe.

It has been shown indeed you can go to jail.

From the very beginning of this discussion I have tried to be quite clear that there are many ways that tax law can get you thrown in jail, but actual non-payment is not one of them. All of the ways you can be imprisoned fall under other statutes.

I have not ignored your comments. In fact, it is your comments that I continue to respond to in an effort to clarify what I am saying. You still seem to think that just not paying taxes gets you tossed in prison, which is not the case. Prison time hinges on various forms of fraud or procedural violations, not on failure to pay.

ZenDen wrote:

So flip flop all you want.

I'm not sure where you think I have flip-flopped on anything.

I have been very consistent throughout, as have you. It has been going around and around pretty much like this:
I maintain one specific point, you provide many statements and examples that do not really apply to my one consistent point, which I then point out do not apply and reiterate my main point yet again.

ZenDen wrote:

The hook is set and you can't wiggle off. (But why don't you do a Limbaugh, just for the heck of it, and say we're liberals?)

^I have absolutely no idea what this is supposed to mean.

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