For those of you against BLM

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That has nothing to do with intelligence. It has to do with flexibility.

You don't state where we agree; you only state where we disagree. It's almost as if you feel that you reveal weakness if you acknowledge somebody could agree with you. I don't like that sort of argument. A decent argument is where you acknowledge agreement as well as disagreement. I don't go for the type of argument where somebody just picks and chooses.

It's your way or the highway. I have to agree totally with what you believe in order not to have an argument. I would estimate that I agree with at least half of what you're saying.

But you argue with me like you believe I don't agree with anything you say. It's all black and white to you.

This is no way to live, in my opinion.

Last edited by kraftiekortie on 29 Jul 2016, 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Where BLM fails:

First:

don't use examples that aren't police brutality as your calling card; if you do, you've based your premise, no matter how just, on lies

Second:

don't assume something is police brutality before the facts are fully known and any subsequent investigation is completed

Third:

don't use identity politics and buzzwords as slogans unless you can back them up 100 percent; doing such is framing the argument in your favor by manipulation

Fourth:

Be objective and have perspective

Fifth:

don't hold black people to lesser standards of civil behavior than white people; many of the things you wish to decriminalize are behaviors that aren't fitting for a civilized society, and if white people can control themselves here, so can black people

There you go. If they followed these things, they'd be accepted by a far larger audience, and they could get their just message across without worrying about people calling out their inconsistencies and biases.

And, of course....you're going to come back with some argument.

You might not AGREE with me.....but a better way to argue is lay out what you believe in, and I lay out what I believe in. See the commonalities, and see the differences.

If you would read everything I write, you would realize that I agree with you at least halfway on this issue. But you act like I totally disagree with you, and that I'm an abominable sort because I totally disagree with you, and because I don't believe 100% in what you believe in.

This is no way to have a discussion.

PS: it was a mistake to "hope that you are not into 'white rights.'" If I misjudged you, I truly apologize. If you're not into that ideology, it was totally the wrong thing to say.

Last edited by kraftiekortie on 29 Jul 2016, 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

This is exactly the point I'm trying to make to people saying I need to go make more black friends to understand black people, or that I'm denying the "black experience". There is no "black experience", and there is no number of black friends I could have that would make me an expert on black people. It's completely ridiculous.

In order to understand black people, you have to be in contact with black people....no ifs, ands, or buts.

You can't rely on statistics in a book.

I would agree that very many black people who have transcended the racism, and created a better situation for themselves. Many of them want to dispense with the history, and move on. I agree 100%

I'm a Jew, and my family experienced the Pogroms of the early 20th century. Yet I'm not harping on the fact that Jews were discriminated against in the old days, or that millions of them were killed in the Nazi Era. I've chose to move on. My heart of hearts state that black people should do the same. Don't let the past determine your future.

However, there are some who are stymied by racism, even though, many times, they are also stymied by themselves.

Last edited by kraftiekortie on 29 Jul 2016, 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

This is otherwise known as The Chickenhawk Fallacy

It's also racist in a way, as it's assuming white and black people behave differently based on their skin color, even though they're under the same cultural umbrella.

(My black friends in high school behaved the exact same way as the white and brown ones.)

I don't care what it's called.

I didn't know any black people until I was about 6 years old. I learned about them through WHAT OTHERS SAID ABOUT THEM.

After I was 6, I started hanging out with people of other ethnicities. I learned to see the individual, not the race of ethnicity of the individual. I STOPPED LISTENING TO WHAT OTHERS WERE SAYING ABOUT THEM.

Do you know why I don't mention where we agree? Because that is utterly pointless. The point of a debate is to take two different, conflicting ideas and see which one holds up to scrutiny. This is a place for disagreement, not agreement. Notice how I also have not responded often or in-depth to other people here who seem to largely agree with me. That is because it is pointless. They already know what I'm saying, so what is the point of patting ourselves on the back for agreeing?

I enjoy disagreement and discourse. The first thing I notice about something is not what's right about it, but what's wrong. That is how my mind works. It is often how I learn new things. Now, that is often out of place in day-to-day life, because people can take offense, but this is a forum specifically for the purpose of discussion and debate. If you don't want disagreement, then why are you coming on here and disagreeing with me? When somebody disagrees with me, I immediately want to criticize what they are saying. That is how I test if they are correct or not. I expect them to back up what they are saying with a sound argument and evidence, and if they do not, I don't believe them.

It is also how I gauge the kinds of responses I get to certain arguments, so I may be better prepared in the future to write or talk about these ideas in a way that people are more likely to understand.

I also get personal satisfaction from proving someone's idea false, and I do like to be right about things. People act like that's a sin. It's not. Disagreement is the only way to improve ideas.

I like discourse. Some of it doesn't have to be of the acrimonious "debate" variety. Some of it can consist of two or more people finding common ground, and discussing why they find common ground.

All right...if you learn new things through disagreement, cool! As long as you learn new things. And as long as you obtain a broadened perspective of these new things. Frequently, sticking dogmatically to ideas makes people narrow in scope; they can't "think beyond the box." And when something contradicts their notions, these people frequently turn a blind eye to it. This perpetuates ignorance.

Disagreement could lead to evolution---but unnecessary disagreement can lead to one feeling stymied. It leads to an disinclination to pursue learning.

I don't find that somebody not sharing certain viewpoints need to be argued with, necessarily I find, instead, that presenting my ideas, letting them present their ideas, and finding common ground often leads to evolution, too.

And then there's the Socratic Method. Which I try to follow, though I don't always succeed.

And it's more pleasant, too, to have an amiable, rather than an acrimonious, discussion. And it gives me a glow in my mind and heart. I don't care where the "glow" originates. I don't care if it's biological. I just like feeling the "glow."

I strongly believe that a good argument involves an acknowledgement of when a person is right, in addition to an exposition of where a person is wrong.

Last edited by kraftiekortie on 29 Jul 2016, 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

KK, this statement bothers me. To wit: "In order to understand black people, you have to be in contact with black people." And the reason this bothers me is there's an implication that we're all the same. If you've met a couple of black guys in Chicago or Amsterdam or East New York or Philadelphia then you know Robin.

I hope that's not what you meant.

That's not what I'm saying at all.

What I'm saying: if people remain with their own ethnic group, and do not come in contact with other ethnic groups, they frequently learn about people of other ethnic groups through hearsay. And much of that hearsay is erroneous, and not based upon reality; instead, it's based upon stereotypical notions.

It is a fact that every ethnic group/race runs the gamut. There is good and bad, conservative and liberal, dark and light, optimistic and pessimistic, within every ethnic group on this planet. Just like Humanity. I only learned that through contact with many ethnic groups. If I stuck to "my own kind," I would still be in the dark, ignorant, and live in a fantasy world. I would be a raging idiot believing hearsay notions.

I'm married to a Trinidadian lady of African extraction. Her family runs the gamut. There are people who have attained eminent success; her son is an MD, in fact, and received a government scholarship to study medicine in Jamaica. And there are people who are virtual bums on the street. All of them are dark-skinned. Skin color is irrelevant; all it means is that a dark-skinned person has more melanin/pigment than a lighter-skinned person.

Last edited by kraftiekortie on 29 Jul 2016, 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

@L Holmes, you make a lot of good points, but this statement bothers me. To wit:

"The truth is, what you and BLM are bringing up is a not a real problem. Police don't unfairly target black people because they love killing n****rs;"

That's a little...how should I say, insulting?

Tell me I'm taking your words out of context and I'll understand.

You don't know me from Adam, RedRobin.

But I am confident that, if you met me, you wouldn't think that I believe that all black people are alike.

My wife and I argue over many things; she calls me all sorts of names.

She's very skeptical of the intentions of white people; however, she agrees, even in her raging anger at me, that I'm totally color-blind.

I know you're not, KK. I was having fun with the fact that there is so much discord on this thread because words and meanings are missed in translation via the internet, and arrows start flying through the air because of it.

Yep....the Internet certainly is a trip, isn't it?

Midshipman: "Captain! There's something huge coming towards us. I just saw it on the radar!"
Captain: "What is it?"
Midshipman: "A radar? It's a device for underwater detection, but that's not important right now."

Lost in translation, or as literary types call it, misplaced modifiers.