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Climate change and Nationalism Surge

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Shahunshah
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09 Apr 2018, 6:44 am

Daniel89 wrote:
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We have debts to pay in the first world and allot of them to say the least.

We have a choice Daniel either take in millions of refugees or seem them face horrible suffering such as rape war, famine, starvation. And quite frankly I would choose to help those people over the less significant domestic concerns of people in the first world. Yes it is true in Germany during the Cologne attacks, an estimated 20 women were raped by migrants. But we have a choice you see, either accept hundreds of thousands of people and lose some security or see them face more trauma and more suffering in the places where they came from.


I would rather 10 strangers get raped than 1 person I know get raped. I want them to stay in their countries and make them better rather than them come to our countries and make them worse.
How are you proposing they make them better?



Daniel89
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09 Apr 2018, 6:45 am

Shahunshah wrote:
Industrial growth and prosperity are what came of the actions of colonialism and the rise of the British empire. It is people like you that benefited from them and gave you a good life. Is it not rational to say that you have a debt to pay due to your position in the world to the people who brought you that.


How exactly? The Agricultural revolution, technological advances and property rights allowed the industrial revolution to happen. Most working class people were essentially slaves throughout most of British history we are the original and longest suffering victims of the British empire.



Daniel89
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09 Apr 2018, 6:48 am

Shahunshah wrote:
Daniel89 wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
We have debts to pay in the first world and allot of them to say the least.

We have a choice Daniel either take in millions of refugees or seem them face horrible suffering such as rape war, famine, starvation. And quite frankly I would choose to help those people over the less significant domestic concerns of people in the first world. Yes it is true in Germany during the Cologne attacks, an estimated 20 women were raped by migrants. But we have a choice you see, either accept hundreds of thousands of people and lose some security or see them face more trauma and more suffering in the places where they came from.


I would rather 10 strangers get raped than 1 person I know get raped. I want them to stay in their countries and make them better rather than them come to our countries and make them worse.
How are you proposing they make them better?


The people fleeing need to stay and make them better. Or flee to similar countries in their region that have better human rights. Our nations should have preferable trade agreements and give foreign aid to developing countries that value civil rights and property rights. These countries will become more stable richer and happier.



Shahunshah
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09 Apr 2018, 6:48 am

Daniel you know what you have just done. You have made an argument that unlike your others is entirely irrational in any form of basis whatsoever. Here is the deal when climate changes takes hold of these countries and civil strife comes about their is little in the way of capacity that a family whose entire community is being persecuted and killed on mass can do to make their own country better. Same for refugees who are in a country facing tremendous civil war. They are fleeing because they are in a political environment and a hostile world they cannot control.



Shahunshah
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09 Apr 2018, 6:52 am

Daniel89 wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
Daniel89 wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
We have debts to pay in the first world and allot of them to say the least.

We have a choice Daniel either take in millions of refugees or seem them face horrible suffering such as rape war, famine, starvation. And quite frankly I would choose to help those people over the less significant domestic concerns of people in the first world. Yes it is true in Germany during the Cologne attacks, an estimated 20 women were raped by migrants. But we have a choice you see, either accept hundreds of thousands of people and lose some security or see them face more trauma and more suffering in the places where they came from.


I would rather 10 strangers get raped than 1 person I know get raped. I want them to stay in their countries and make them better rather than them come to our countries and make them worse.
How are you proposing they make them better?


The people fleeing need to stay and make them better. Or flee to similar countries in their region that have better human rights. Our nations should have preferable trade agreements and give foreign aid to developing countries that value civil rights and property rights. These countries will become more stable richer and happier.
Do you want to know what happened when 600,000 Rohingya fleed to Bangladesh. Thousands were turned back. The ones that did come were sent to Islands and locations prone to flooding and disease. They are having an absolutely hellish experience in that country, as Bangladesh is unable to provide for these individuals. That is the problem with sending refugees to neighboring countries in the region. They do not have the capital or the infrastructure to support them.



Shahunshah
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09 Apr 2018, 6:58 am

Daniel you sound to me like a smart guy. But there is a massive problem with what you are doing here. You are clinging to many arguments left right and center. You need to think about them carefully and the situation these refugees will likely face. This is a complex issue, and you have pointed that out well with some of your better arguments, but you need to think carefully about what is feasible and what isn't.



Daniel89
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09 Apr 2018, 7:00 am

Shahunshah wrote:
Daniel you know what you have just done. You have made an argument that unlike your others is entirely irrational in any form of basis whatsoever. Here is the deal when climate changes takes hold of these countries and civil strife comes about their is little in the way of capacity that a family whose entire community is being persecuted and killed on mass can do to make their own country better. Same for refugees who are in a country facing tremendous civil war. They are fleeing because they are in a political environment and a hostile world they cannot control.


Are you specifically talking about minority communities within the developing world? It gets a bit more complicated when we are comparing numerous different countries and different cultures. I am not saying never allow minorities escaping persecution in just that we shouldn't do it at the detriment of our own people.

Take the current refugees coming to Europe. The Largest estimate of ISIS numbers is that they have 200k member yet millions of people are fleeing. If we encourage them to flee their countries with the promise of free money this makes it easier for Isis to take over. Most of the people fleeing to Europe are young fighting age men.



Daniel89
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09 Apr 2018, 7:02 am

Shahunshah wrote:
Do you want to know what happened when 600,000 Rohingya fleed to Bangladesh. Thousands were turned back. The ones that did come were sent to Islands and locations prone to flooding and disease. They are having an absolutely hellish experience in that country, as Bangladesh is unable to provide for these individuals. That is the problem with sending refugees to neighboring countries in the region. They do not have the capital or the infrastructure to support them.


In that case I think we should place sanctions on Burma and seek a country they could go to an pay them to take them in such as Malaysia.



Shahunshah
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09 Apr 2018, 7:05 am

Daniel89 wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
Daniel you know what you have just done. You have made an argument that unlike your others is entirely irrational in any form of basis whatsoever. Here is the deal when climate changes takes hold of these countries and civil strife comes about their is little in the way of capacity that a family whose entire community is being persecuted and killed on mass can do to make their own country better. Same for refugees who are in a country facing tremendous civil war. They are fleeing because they are in a political environment and a hostile world they cannot control.


Are you specifically talking about minority communities within the developing world? It gets a bit more complicated when we are comparing numerous different countries and different cultures. I am not saying never allow minorities escaping persecution in just that we shouldn't do it at the detriment of our own people.

Take the current refugees coming to Europe. The Largest estimate of ISIS numbers is that they have 200k member yet millions of people are fleeing. If we encourage them to flee their countries with the promise of free money this makes it easier for Isis to take over. Most of the people fleeing to Europe are young fighting age men.
Well most Isis fighters now have joined groups like Al Dusra, they aren't becoming Syrian refugees fleeing. If that was the case then the number of terror attacks and carnage would be horrifically worse. but so far terror attacks in Europe would have claimed less than 350 lives or around that number, as there has never been any major tragedies to match what happened in Nice and Paris neither in scale or frequency. For the planning of the Paris attack there was estimated to be one Syrian refugee, but by and large, the planners and perpetrators of this attack, were ethnic French Arabs. A minority which feels extremely disenfranchised.



Shahunshah
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09 Apr 2018, 7:07 am

Daniel89 wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
Do you want to know what happened when 600,000 Rohingya fleed to Bangladesh. Thousands were turned back. The ones that did come were sent to Islands and locations prone to flooding and disease. They are having an absolutely hellish experience in that country, as Bangladesh is unable to provide for these individuals. That is the problem with sending refugees to neighboring countries in the region. They do not have the capital or the infrastructure to support them.


In that case I think we should place sanctions on Burma and seek a country they could go to an pay them to take them in such as Malaysia.
That's easy when you have 600,000 refugees from Myanmar. When the crisis I am talking about comes about, every country will need to pitch in to cater for 200 million Climate refugees.



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09 Apr 2018, 7:10 am

Shahunshah wrote:
Well most Isis fighters now have joined groups like Al Dusra, they aren't becoming Syrian refugees fleeing. If that was the case then the number of terror attacks and carnage would be horrifically worse. but so far terror attacks in Europe would have claimed less than 350 lives or around that number, as there has never been any major tragedies to match what happened in Nice and Paris neither in scale or frequency. For the planning of the Paris attack there was estimated to be one Syrian refugee, but by and large, the planners and perpetrators of this attack, were ethnic French Arabs. A minority which feels extremely disenfranchised.


Well they were Muslims and that is what is important. I am however not that afraid of Terrorism I am afraid of their growing political power and how they will vote to take away our freedoms, how they will seek to make our country more like the one they fled from. Anyone who thinks a man who raped a child is anything other than evil should not be allowed to move to Britain in my opinion.



Shahunshah
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09 Apr 2018, 7:18 am

Daniel89 wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
Well most Isis fighters now have joined groups like Al Dusra, they aren't becoming Syrian refugees fleeing. If that was the case then the number of terror attacks and carnage would be horrifically worse. but so far terror attacks in Europe would have claimed less than 350 lives or around that number, as there has never been any major tragedies to match what happened in Nice and Paris neither in scale or frequency. For the planning of the Paris attack there was estimated to be one Syrian refugee, but by and large, the planners and perpetrators of this attack, were ethnic French Arabs. A minority which feels extremely disenfranchised.


Well they were Muslims and that is what is important. I am however not that afraid of Terrorism I am afraid of their growing political power and how they will vote to take away our freedoms, how they will seek to make our country more like the one they fled from. Anyone who thinks a man who raped a child is anything other than evil should not be allowed to move to Britain in my opinion.

Your average Muslim thinks allot of things I would disagree with. But thinking a child should be raped is not one of them. I think you might be referring the Prophet Muhammad and the fact his wife was around 6. That is tough to learn about but it is not the moral principle which most Muslims hold. And even if it was, the vast majority of Muslims are law-abiding citizens who value deeply things such as looking after their children and giving them protection.

Your not at risk of losing your freedoms. I am not advocating that Britain takes 200 million people. What the Western World does is share the cost. I am asking you to forsake your level of comfort for the greater good however.



Shahunshah
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09 Apr 2018, 7:20 am

Child marriage is prohibited in Bangladesh for your knowledge. And this is a democratic society where people have made this decision. So don't paint people with a singular brush.



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09 Apr 2018, 7:22 am

Shahunshah wrote:
Your average Muslim thinks allot of things I would disagree with. But thinking a child should be raped is not one of them. I think you might be referring the Prophet Muhammad and the fact his wife was around 6. That is tough to learn about but it is not the moral principle which most Muslims hold. And even if it was, the vast majority of Muslims are law-abiding citizens who value deeply things such as looking after their children and giving them protection.

Your not at risk of losing your freedoms. I am not advocating that Britain takes 200 million people. What the Western World does is share the cost. I am asking you to forsake your level of comfort for the greater good however.


They may be law abiding for now as a small minority but as their numbers increase so will their influence on our culture and laws. I cannot see how that can be anything but a negative thing.



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09 Apr 2018, 7:24 am

Shahunshah wrote:
Child marriage is prohibited in Bangladesh for your knowledge. And this is a democratic society where people have made this decision. So don't paint people with a singular brush.


That's probably because on a human level they know its wrong even though their religion says its okay, the same thing is true with slavery and Christianity.



Shahunshah
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09 Apr 2018, 7:25 am

Daniel89 wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
Child marriage is prohibited in Bangladesh for your knowledge. And this is a democratic society where people have made this decision. So don't paint people with a singular brush.


That's probably because on a human level they know its wrong even though their religion says its okay, the same thing is true with slavery and Christianity.
Yeah that's exactly true.