Is it sexist to use the word "girl" in reference to adult

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No matter what answer I give out, people are going to hate it. But I find calling an adult woman a "girl" to be mildly to moderately offensive, depending on her age. Most people don't call adult men "boys", unless it's to insult them or imply they are not physically or emotionally mature.

I think it's a shame the word 'gentlewoman' has mainly fallen out of disuse. Especially in a world where we're more open to lgbt people than in the past, and where we don't automatically expect feminine behaviour out of women.

If 'lady' and 'gentleman' had as well then it would be less of a shame, simply a reflection that we care less about social class these days.

But 'lady' and 'gentleman' aren't exact equivalents.

What I mean by a 'gentlewoman' would be a female gentleman. A woman who pulled her chair out for a lady, who never swore in front of a lady & who defended her lady's honour. Almost entirely lesbians. Women like Ann Lister for eg.

A lady is more a prim and proper type always in a dress, never shows her legs, never swears. Feminine rules of propriety.

Boy and girl and man and woman are less gendered than that I think. Adult 'boys' and 'girls' are both informal, young, sexy, pals etc. 'Men' and 'women' are both generic adults worth respect who you might not know well or might know professionally for eg.

OMG, right. The question itself puts me into a binary gender state of mind. Forgive me, all fluid gender types. My spouse is from a country that had five gender types (before being "colonized"). There were adults who were not called "girl" (or "boy") no matter what age. And there are people today who might ask the same.

OT: There is a report of a zoo animal that reproduced unexpectedly. She had not had contact with the opposite sex in years. It could have been sexual reproduction (storage). Testing is in progress. If it was done asexually, does that mean the zoo handlers stop saying "good, girl"?

OMG: We have it all wrong. Let's go back to the 1300s "gyrle" when the World was Great!
https://qz.com/1078044/girl-power-girly ... word-girl/



I care because I want people to be treated equitably and language can be a tool for that. Right now at my workplace, women and girly-men get the short stick (emotionally, financially, etc.). Frankly it's bad for people, it's bad for business. Do people talk respectfully b/c they already have respect, or can starting to speak respectfully bring about awareness and respect? Both.

It's very telling what happens as AI "learns". There are many instances that AI shows racial and gender bias (facial recognition, web page search, job candidate selection, medical diagnosis) --- either b/c of hard-coded rankings or it has learned them from our "soft" biases --- and then the bias is perpetuated --- AI becomes it's own increasing feedback loop, just as humans are --- unless someone disrupts it. Sometimes it just takes one word (or punctuation) to do that. The bigger problem is mutual respect (regardless of difference type), but one must start somewhere.

Yeah, nothing like the politics of guns and steel to break complexity and force simplicity.

It seems to be one of the most canonical problems we have in this world - ie. whoever coagulates the most force wins, regardless of whether they're right or wrong, regardless of whether they're trampling something superior to what they're bringing. Seems like our grasp on what force is and how to keep it within certain lines (and away from destroying gainful complexity) is critical for getting humanity into the future in better shape.

I like the sound of gentlewoman. It would definitely have to be redefined.

As you suggest, today's primary definitions are unequal:
* Gentleman: a chivalrous, courteous, or honorable man.
* Gentlewoman: a woman of high social standing.

While I am at it:
* Lady: a woman (used as a polite or old-fashioned form of reference).

So when my Sales person says "Gentlemen... and Lady" (which he adds when he realizes I am on the phone), he's calling them honorable and being polite to me. Great.


Agreed.

Are you sure Sir? (Just a joke about this.)
People want to be treated right and fair but not all of them the same.

Yes, Missy. (back at you )

This discussion has got a bit closer to other part I contribute like the existence of gender neutral versions. Acknowledgment at best often comes from something like "ladies, gentlemen and everyone in between".

I like and am part of pushing for "enby" for non-binary people, but it is a little vague that it is equivalent to boy and girl, and if there is even a version of man and woman.

I find the results to be quite surprising. Quite frankly, I was assuming that overwhelming majority of both men and women would say that they use that word. So the next question is: how come I got that impression that both genders keep using it? Do you think its

a) Its mostly East Coast where that word is viewed badly, and I never lived on East Coast

b) Some of the people that disliked that word are from Europe. I don't know about other European languages/cultures, but I know that -- at least in Russian -- it would indeed sound bad to use the word "girl" in reference to adult. I got an impression its okay in English. But could it be that its okay in American English and not British English? And thats why some of the responders from Britain didn't like it?

c) If, say, 50% of the people are okay with the word and the other 50% don't like it, then maybe I keep hearing that word from the 50% that likes it -- while the other 50% isn't going to call them out on it since they are avoiding confrontation -- so I simply don't notice that they "happen" not to use it

But in any case, if I were to try to call someone in her 20-s a woman without it feeling weird, I would have to say "young woman". I guess "young woman" feel okay, but simply saying "woman" feels weird because the word "woman" (without "young" at the front) makes me imagine someone over 30.

Would you equally feel weird calling a 25 year old man a man, and would rather call him "young man"?

My thoughts is that calling someone a young man sounds more like referring to a teenager. Unless the one saying it is super old.

I think it is the equivalent but non-binary people say only they can use it. Which causes issues cos 'boy', 'girl' and 'non-binary person' makes the non-binary person sound really formal.

I like 'guys, gals and NB pals' tbh but I'm ftm not NB.

Actually, I *would* call him "young man" -- unless I will call him a "guy" of course. Calling him a man feels weird since man is someone over 30.

I think part of the issue is that it is guy/girl rather than guy/gal. Back in the 90-s it used to be guy/gal but then in the 2000-s the word "gal" ended up being replaced with "girl".

Honestly I don't think it's sexist then, like I said just make it an equivalent.

I think the votes are coming from people who never say 'lad' or 'boy' or maybe even 'guy' for an adult.

I actually grew up in the mid-Atlantic, but my parents' influence (both from Northeast) was strong. My dad (from the Northeast) modelled the terms "young men" and "young woman" for me. Come to think of it, he spent some time in the military in an elite troop which demanded respect and courtesy. I'm sure they ribbed each other behind the scenes, but outwardly they were taught and used respectful (albeit binary) terms.

I couldn't find a map for "girl", but do find these maps. I say "sneakers", "soft drink" and "y'all", "water fountain", "garage sale" "car-mel" etc. --- which apparently is a mixture of where my parents grew up ("garage sale"), with where I grew up ("y'all") and where I am now ("car-mel"). I wish there were a map like this related to your survey.

Regional variations (US only): https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/hi ... ricans-say


That's wonderful. In my mostly toxic workplace, if someone say "guys and gals", I could probably add "and pals" with only minor retaliation.

I still don't know what to do about "Gentlemen and Ladies" --- How about: "Hello, Everyone!"

I find this: "countries that speak more gendered language have less gender equality."
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelsesse ... ec839e26ba

Which reminds me, my Latinx spouse and I have talked about this a lot b/c in Spanish many of the negative terms ("la multa", "la pena" are feminine and many of the positive terms are masculine ("el premio", el éxito"). There are many other factors, but in his parents' generation it was fairly acceptable for married men to physically abuse their wives. There are common "jokes" about not bringing "tu mujer" ("your woman") to the USA because then she'll demand respect. Gasp!

It depends on the specific context.

I would be careful about calling an adult woman a "girl" if I don't know her----or if I do know her, and she doesn't like being called a "girl."

But if I have an adult woman friend, and she calls herself a "girl," then I'd be less reticent about it.

I feel "girl," at times, has more of the meaning of "guy" than the meaning of "the opposite of a boy." Maybe similar to the meaning of "gal" in the early 20th century.

Well, as far as never saying "boy" thats true I don't say it. But I do say "guy" though -- which I say just as often as "girl" -- and I think of "guy" and "girl" as equivalent.

Maybe the reason it sounds sexist to some is that guy used to be equivalent to gal, but then the word gal fell out of use and the word girl came into use. So could it be that in Europe and possibly East Coast the word gal is still used while in America it fell out of use and thats why the voters from Europe and East Coast don't like the word girl?

I know that in Russian the word for gal (devushka) is still in use and thats why -- if someone were to speak Russian -- and replace gal (devushka) with girl (devochka) in reference to adult it would sound disrespectful. But in English the word gal fell out of use and using the word girl is normal.

But, interestingly enough, Russia happens to be more sexist than America. Similarly, America in the past was more sexist than America now. So both of these things are "opposite" to the points that others wanted to bring: in more sexist times/parts of the world they use "gal", and in less sexist times/ parts of the world they use "girl". So its interesting that this happens "despite" the fact that the word "girl" is seen as sexist.

Last edited by QFT on 14 Sep 2020, 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.