White Muslims?

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How true, the majority of Muslims live in southeastern Asia.

Uh... it's called Albanian people, duh. I also know some Afghan folks who look like white folks, but they're Afghan.

Emphasis added by BeeBee.

Especially rare on the internet.

huh?

but back to the original (relevant) subject...

/me wonders - should i mention the berbers...?

yeah, where'd tom get to anyway?, he started all this

Noone wants to hear my opinion on it. All I have is uninformed prejudice and fear, stemming from my childhood in Cote d'Ivoire probably

That's not true, Tom. Everybody's opinion is equally valid, and you shouldn't let the opinionated, or particulary articulate, put you off contributing something; afterall, you started this thread.

my old baording school got taken over by muslim terrorists in Africa (years after i left). Reading about it in the paper and thinking about my old freinds bing victimised with guns really left me with deep seated hate. I guess I just can't get over my bigotry.

That's perfectly understandable, Tom. Few human beings would be any different.

I guess, too, it's true that many Muslims have similar feelings towards us, for equally valid reasons. That's why multiculturalism, in it's present UK format, is a disaster.

Was that Zimbabwe?

that's not bigotry, tom, that's personal experience. i have much the same sort of issue with rape and sexual abuse. what i've learned to do (and it was BLOODY hard) is to separate out my personal responses from my political ones. i have a lot of problems with the way some followers of islam treat women, but i separate that out, too.

so, of course you're going to feel like that, until you are able to see the wider picture - i certainly did, for years.

somebody mention me?



not true, but I'll admit the original post put my back up

we've come a long way since then though

Fair play to tom and vertivert for being so honest and to rumio for refusing to resort to insults in an emotive subject. Maybe its because it is late or something but this cynic is genuinely touched by the decency thats been shown by all three.

thank you, eamonn. i think this shows that we CAN have an intelligent and productive discussion, without resorting to personal attacks, or bigotry etc., etc., even with a subject such as this, which is bound to be emotive and controversial.

as i say, i like to think i don't close off my ears, just cos i hear something i don't like. and many people on this thread have done the same, i reckon.

well done us!

Going back to Tom's original post, about white people wearing Muslim dress, and widening that a little to include all people wearing Muslim dress in the UK. I think it's fair to say that some people, indeed in certain areas many people, see that as provocative. Of course Vetivert may accuse me of talking about something I don't understand, but that, unfortunately, is something I do; from speaking to white working class people whose communities have been literally taken from them by immigrants who much of the time can't even speak English.

Of course, it's their legal right to wear Muslim dress, as it is to speak whatever language they choose, but to many people those things are a statement of defiance: a kind of "this is our country now, so go get f****d". In a way, like when the Orangemen march down Shankhill road: it's their right, but also seen as an overt political statement. OK, there are many differences between the two situations, granted; but, there's enough similarity to demonstrate the point.

Looking at the last example, the problem to a greater extent is perception, and the misunderstandings that Vetivert has stated exist due to ignorance; but, that doesn't mean that there isn't a problem — a big one — and that Muslims have as much responsibility (perhaps more) than the rest of us to ensure that now we're all in this bloody mess together that we can get on. And if that means they dress a little like the rest of us, and speak our language, then that's what they should do.

no, ascan - i'm not going to say you're arguing about something you don't understand, because you're arguing cogently and intelligently, and you say that it's your experience which you are discussing, and NOT saying that either your experience or what someone else has told you to think is carved in stone. and you are looking at the bigger picture.

i have no problem with anyone who wants to debate, as long as there is justification for their point. that's what i mean when i say one has to go to where people are - how can i understand what it's like to have tom's experience unless i listen to him? or anyone else, for that matter. and then the discussion starts, not by saying "i'm right and you're wrong" (which i have done, i know, but that's mainly due to lack of argument on the other person's part).

i also agree with much of what you've said - we all have collective responsibility for everything, really.

and i'm still impressed and delighted at how civilised this thread is.