Is there any historic proof that Jesus existed?

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enrico_dandolo
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22 Aug 2012, 6:39 pm

No extra-biblical evidence? So what? The Bible is a document, isn't it? (Well, a collection of document anyway.) If you want to dismiss what it says, you have to back it up. Critical reading is not systematic rejection.



ruveyn
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22 Aug 2012, 6:51 pm

enrico_dandolo wrote:
No extra-biblical evidence? So what? The Bible is a document, isn't it? (Well, a collection of document anyway.) If you want to dismiss what it says, you have to back it up. Critical reading is not systematic rejection.


Those who claim the Bible is true (factual) have the burden of proof.

I see no more reason for taking the Bible as fact, than taking Tolkien's -Silmarillion- as fact.

ruveyn



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22 Aug 2012, 7:16 pm

I certainly agree about the Ancient Testament. You will notice that I did the comparison to Tolkien myself a few times around here.

However, the New Testament was written relatively close to the fact and did not refer to a mythical past. It is a historical document, not the most reliable or trustworthy ever, but the only one we have on this. It can't just be tossed away just because it is bound it the same book as a creation myth and because it contains miracles itself -- if we rejected all sources which admit the existence of miracles or divine interventions, we wouldn't have much to say.



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22 Aug 2012, 7:23 pm

My understanding is, at the time Jesus was crucified, Pontius Pilate decreed that all references to Jesus be stricken from every known tome in an attempt to "erase" his existence.



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22 Aug 2012, 8:18 pm

In the year 325 A.D. the Roman Emperor Constantine called together a council of wise men from Italy, Greece, Egypt, Persia, Arabia, and other nearby countries to invent a religion to replace Paganism and create a more moral society. There were a total of 1,786 scholars, scribes, and religious teachers. They brought with them 2,231 books about gods, saviors, and other great men. 62 gods existed at the time, and about 60 saviors. By ballot, the god 'Kriste' was selected to be used for the new religion which means knowledge in the Ahanic language. A ballot was also done to choose the name of the savior. 'Iesu', meaning sexless, was the name choosen, which became 'Jesus' after the Latin prefix '-us' was added. Parts of the lives of Jose the Nazarene, Apollonius of Tyana, and Jehoshua ben Pandira of Egypt were chosen to compose the story of Jesus. The story of the Hindu god, Krishna, and astrological references were also incorporated. The star Lucifer 'The Son of The Morning' from the constellation Scorpio 'The Great Dragon' goes dark during the winter months. The winter months were a time of famine for the ancient Jews and the star Lucifer going dark represented famine to them. This was also incorporated into the story of Jesus. The four points of the cross represent the four classical elements (Earth, Fire, Water, and Air). The nails in Jesus's wrists, holding him to the cross represent how the flesh keeps us at the mercy of the physical. Jesus's soul represents the fifth element (Aether) which was believed to be the composition of the soul. After enduring the physical, the soul is freed from the body and the elements of the earth.



ruveyn
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22 Aug 2012, 9:11 pm

Mike1 wrote:
In the year 325 A.D. the Roman Emperor Constantine called together a council of wise men from Italy, Greece, Egypt, Persia, Arabia, and other nearby countries to invent a religion to replace Paganism and create a more moral society. There were a total of 1,786 scholars, scribes, and religious teachers. They brought with them 2,231 books about gods, saviors, and other great men. 62 gods existed at the time, and about 60 saviors. By ballot, the god 'Kriste' was selected to be used for the new religion which means knowledge in the Ahanic language. A ballot was also done to choose the name of the savior. 'Iesu', meaning sexless, was the name choosen, which became 'Jesus' after the Latin prefix '-us' was added. Parts of the lives of Jose the Nazarene, Apollonius of Tyana, and Jehoshua ben Pandira of Egypt were chosen to compose the story of Jesus. The story of the Hindu god, Krishna, and astrological references were also incorporated. The star Lucifer 'The Son of The Morning' from the constellation Scorpio 'The Great Dragon' goes dark during the winter months. The winter months were a time of famine for the ancient Jews and the star Lucifer going dark represented famine to them. This was also incorporated into the story of Jesus. The four points of the cross represent the four classical elements (Earth, Fire, Water, and Air). The nails in Jesus's wrists, holding him to the cross represent how the flesh keeps us at the mercy of the physical. Jesus's soul represents the fifth element (Aether) which was believed to be the composition of the soul. After enduring the physical, the soul is freed from the body and the elements of the earth.


In short, it is al made up stuff.

ruveyn



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22 Aug 2012, 10:04 pm

Assume for a moment that a man/god named Jesus existed. Also, assume that he performed all the miracles listed in the gospels. Did any of these miracles really benefit us? Why didn't he teach something useful such as the germ theory or basic sanitation? What has given us freedom from many communicable diseases, provided safer food and water, and even cures for certain cancers? That's right. Science.
I believe in things I can find evidence. Science provides evidence and proof. Bronze Age myths, god/man saviors, and meaningless rituals provide no enrichment to our lives.
We have outgrown gods.



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23 Aug 2012, 12:17 am

ruveyn wrote:
Isthisreal wrote:
Is there any historic proof that Jesus existed? I'm not talking about the god/man that the bible makes him out to be. Was there ever a man named Jesus? Was he possibly just completely made up? Or was he a normal person and all his powers and legacy were completely made up (by Paul perhaps)?

Anyhow, I'm looking for historic proof here. Sorry, but I don't consider the bible as proof that Jesus existed.


Y'shua (Jesus) is a fairly common name in Hebrew and Aramaic. Whether Y'shua the son of a Virgin existed is highly debatable.

If he did exist we know for sure he is Jewish: Consider:

1 He lived at home until he was 33.
2 He went into his father's business
3 He believed his mother was a Virgin
4 His mother believed he was God.

ruveyn


As my family is watching TV, I had to suppress a laughter fit upon reading this. :lol:

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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23 Aug 2012, 12:23 am

Dussel wrote:
IdahoAspie wrote:
Isthisreal wrote:
Is there any historic proof that Jesus existed? I'm not talking about the god/man that the bible makes him out to be. Was there ever a man named Jesus? Was he possibly just completely made up? Or was he a normal person and all his powers and legacy were completely made up (by Paul perhaps)?

Anyhow, I'm looking for historic proof here. Sorry, but I don't consider the bible as proof that Jesus existed.


Yes! There is. I found these tidbits of information that says it all very well:

"The "proof" for the existence of Christ can be found in three main sources. The argument for the existence of Jesus is strengthened because the person of Jesus Christ is mentioned by independent Christian, Jewish, and Roman sources. Obviously the person of Jesus is mentioned quite thoroughly in the New Testament and other early Christian writings but Jesus is also mentioned by the Jewish historian Josephus. The fact that Josephus, a practicing Jew and a man who was not actively involved Christian circles and not part of the early church mentions the existence of Jesus of Nazareth in his writings definitely gives credence to the argument for the existence of Jesus Christ.


The lines of Josephus are not considered as proven authentic. There are some uncertainties regarding his style.

IdahoAspie wrote:
In turn, another of the most credible arguments for the existence of Jesus Christ are the writings of the Roman historian Tacitus. Tacitus was a Roman historian who also mentioned the existence of the crucifixion of Jesus in his writings. In turn, the writings of Tacitus are viewed by historians as crucial to not only understanding early Middle Eastern history


Tacitus lived nearly 100 years after Jesus. His writing are an important source for the history of the early Caesars, but less important for the Middle East. He only mentions the Middle East in respect of Roman Wars.

IdahoAspie wrote:
but also what we know of early Germanic tribes in Europe.


His writings regarding the early Germanic Tribes are more a critic on the Roman society than a reliable source of the early Germanic Tribes

IdahoAspie wrote:
In essence, while the divinity of Jesus is not something that can be proven historically, the historical community is quite sure that a person named Jesus did live in the Middle East two thousand years ago and can look to independent historical sources to strengthen their argument."


What remains is that there was likely a Jewish guy how was called Jesus and has been crucified by the Romans. Perhaps there were 100's or even 1000's of this kind around in this time.


Not to get off the main subject, but while Tacitus' Germania was a social commentary on comparing the primitive but "virtuous" Germanic barbarians to the corrupt Romans, more than enough archaeological evidence and later written sources in fact confirm his description of Pre-Christian Germanic life. Historians and archaeologists consider it to be an invaluable document.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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23 Aug 2012, 6:59 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Isthisreal wrote:
Is there any historic proof that Jesus existed? I'm not talking about the god/man that the bible makes him out to be. Was there ever a man named Jesus? Was he possibly just completely made up? Or was he a normal person and all his powers and legacy were completely made up (by Paul perhaps)?

Anyhow, I'm looking for historic proof here. Sorry, but I don't consider the bible as proof that Jesus existed.


Y'shua (Jesus) is a fairly common name in Hebrew and Aramaic. Whether Y'shua the son of a Virgin existed is highly debatable.

If he did exist we know for sure he is Jewish: Consider:

1 He lived at home until he was 33.
2 He went into his father's business
3 He believed his mother was a Virgin
4 His mother believed he was God.

ruveyn


As my family is watching TV, I had to suppress a laughter fit upon reading this. :lol:

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


That was one of Ruveyn's best. :lmao:



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24 Aug 2012, 2:31 am

I'd say there is some evidence but definitely no proof. It's more likely Jesus existed than he didn't, in some way or another, but I wouldn't say we can know for sure.



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24 Aug 2012, 8:28 am

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24 Aug 2012, 9:47 am

Quote:
Is there any historic proof that Jesus existed?


it would be sufficient to ask "is there any proof that Jesus existed" because "historic " proof is the same as modern "proof"



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26 Aug 2012, 9:42 pm

N0tYetDeadFred wrote:
First, in academic circles, this question is considered to have been settled about 50 years ago. The consensus is that there was a historical Jesus.

Second, "historical proof" is a misnomer. We historians use evidence, but history is not a science. The reverse of this mistake would be saying something like "Unless you show me historical writings proving that there was gravity in 7000 B.C., I won't believe it."

Saying you won't accept "the Bible" is also problematic, because there is no such thing. The Bible is a collection of books, letters, and poems written over thousands of years, not a single book. Aside from the Gospels, it does contain letters about Jesus.

There is more evidence pointing to the existence of Jesus than other ancient figures, such as Socrates. Extra-biblical evidence includes the Gnostic Gospels, the Roman historian Josephus, some versions of the Talmud (who called him a sorcerer, but did not doubt his existence,) the migration pattern of early Christians, and so on.


Prove your first statement.
I believe it to be patently false.



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26 Aug 2012, 9:49 pm

Mike1 wrote:
In the year 325 A.D. the Roman Emperor Constantine called together a council of wise men from Italy, Greece, Egypt, Persia, Arabia, and other nearby countries to invent a religion to replace Paganism and create a more moral society. There were a total of 1,786 scholars, scribes, and religious teachers. They brought with them 2,231 books about gods, saviors, and other great men. 62 gods existed at the time, and about 60 saviors. By ballot, the god 'Kriste' was selected to be used for the new religion which means knowledge in the Ahanic language. A ballot was also done to choose the name of the savior. 'Iesu', meaning sexless, was the name choosen, which became 'Jesus' after the Latin prefix '-us' was added. Parts of the lives of Jose the Nazarene, Apollonius of Tyana, and Jehoshua ben Pandira of Egypt were chosen to compose the story of Jesus. The story of the Hindu god, Krishna, and astrological references were also incorporated. The star Lucifer 'The Son of The Morning' from the constellation Scorpio 'The Great Dragon' goes dark during the winter months. The winter months were a time of famine for the ancient Jews and the star Lucifer going dark represented famine to them. This was also incorporated into the story of Jesus. The four points of the cross represent the four classical elements (Earth, Fire, Water, and Air). The nails in Jesus's wrists, holding him to the cross represent how the flesh keeps us at the mercy of the physical. Jesus's soul represents the fifth element (Aether) which was believed to be the composition of the soul. After enduring the physical, the soul is freed from the body and the elements of the earth.


I'm fascinated by this.

Please, can you direct me to the source(s) for what you have written?



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26 Aug 2012, 9:54 pm

slave wrote:
Mike1 wrote:
In the year 325 A.D. the Roman Emperor Constantine called together a council of wise men from Italy, Greece, Egypt, Persia, Arabia, and other nearby countries to invent a religion to replace Paganism and create a more moral society. There were a total of 1,786 scholars, scribes, and religious teachers. They brought with them 2,231 books about gods, saviors, and other great men. 62 gods existed at the time, and about 60 saviors. By ballot, the god 'Kriste' was selected to be used for the new religion which means knowledge in the Ahanic language. A ballot was also done to choose the name of the savior. 'Iesu', meaning sexless, was the name choosen, which became 'Jesus' after the Latin prefix '-us' was added. Parts of the lives of Jose the Nazarene, Apollonius of Tyana, and Jehoshua ben Pandira of Egypt were chosen to compose the story of Jesus. The story of the Hindu god, Krishna, and astrological references were also incorporated. The star Lucifer 'The Son of The Morning' from the constellation Scorpio 'The Great Dragon' goes dark during the winter months. The winter months were a time of famine for the ancient Jews and the star Lucifer going dark represented famine to them. This was also incorporated into the story of Jesus. The four points of the cross represent the four classical elements (Earth, Fire, Water, and Air). The nails in Jesus's wrists, holding him to the cross represent how the flesh keeps us at the mercy of the physical. Jesus's soul represents the fifth element (Aether) which was believed to be the composition of the soul. After enduring the physical, the soul is freed from the body and the elements of the earth.


I'm fascinated by this.

Please, can you direct me to the source(s) for what you have written?


I've never heard of any historical source backing this up. The fact of the matter is, written historical sources prove Christianity predated Constantine by centuries. This statement is totally ahistorical.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer