How Screwed is the World Economy?

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Some people are. That's kind of the entire engineering profession, no? And what of inventors who get ripped off?


What of management? Aren't they, with their organizational services and provision of capital, adding anything to the mix? Can't you consider the added value to be a sort of emergent property of all the different components of the production process?

No he can't. To do so would be to negate his Marxist argument that the true creators of wealth are muscle bound Palookas who do repetitive labor. Only bulging muscle and sweaty brow creates value, according to these jokers.

Value requires BOTH brains and brawn.

ruveyn

And capital investment.

I can't remember to have seen any time a more simplified version of Marx' Surplus-Theory.

This Surplus, Mehrwert, to stay with marxian terms, is needed for accumulation of the capital. One of the features of capitalism is a "constantly revolutionising the instruments of production". This instruments must get produced by the means is the surplus of the workers. The company does not go primary bust, because it lacks money, but because it does loose in the competition process of the capitalist production. General Motars does not a have a problem because their products or way of producing is bad, but because other companies do this better - with more modern means, which had to be paid.

Via the exchange mechanism of money the surplus is transformed into new means of production and therefore needed for the progress of society.

S&L was a pretty limited venture. It was bank committing fraud. I was surprised this didn't come with John McCain when he ran for President.

I don't think you can link this to that issue because this isn't fraud, what they did was legal, but unethical and bad business practice.

Yes. One needs the means to buy the brains, the brawn and the material necessary to produce a good or service. However mere repetitive labor is insufficient for producing all the value that our economy produces.

My main beef with the surplus or labor theory of value is that it discounts the mentality of invention and the usefulness of co-ordination of activity (aka management). Try running a factory and meeting production and delivery schedules without a layout of tasks and priorities. The material has to be at the right place at the right time for the brawny sons of toil to smite with their hammers or dig with their spades. Where would the brawny sons of toil be without someone inventing the means to produce their hammers and shovels?

Do not get me wrong. I am sure that there are far too many empty suits in the running of businesses, especially large businesses, but without co-ordination, dispatching, scheduling, minding the inventory etc our firms could not produce.
Even the capitalist system is overburdened with "aparatchics, buddies and cronies" who do not do enough useful work or service, but get handsomely paid. That defect is inherent in the hierarchical structure of medium and large firms.

ruveyn

I think a big problem with the US economy is that we don't have the right kind of labor in the right place. We have too many college graduates in business and not enough in science, research, and health care professions. The economy needs to correct itself.

In a capitalistic system people go for the money.

In Pol Pots Cambodia, people did not go for the money. And what did they get?

ruveyn

I think in any type of economic system people for the money and wealth. The problem is hording the wealth hinders economic development.

it is evident from the poll that the prevailing expectations of people are for "doom and gloom".
this is what is causing the problem in the first place. the lack of confidence means everyone is afraid and they do not contribute their money to anything because they wish to hold on to it.
people are so scared, they are hunkering down and tightly grasping their nest eggs to their chests.

when the most respected economists are seen to be scratching their heads in dismay and confusion as to what is going on and when it will end, an icy parnoia grips people and they remove every thing they can from the economic system.
they want to hide under their beds with all their dollars until it seems sunny again.

the bulk of the money in the world is in the pockets of average people, and their fear has dessicated the fluidity of the financial system.

i answered moderate recession.
but i think by about october, all the annual reports of all companies will be in and the entire scope of the problem will be understood. this crisis started in october last year and there were few annual reports released at that time. there has been many companies like GM that have recently revealed in their annual reports how bad they are going, and every day the market suffers due to the gloomy panic that each new company annual report incites.

but after october, every company will have shown it's hand, and the bad news will all be learned, and there will be nothing new to sink our hearts from then on.

at that point people will realize that they see the "bottom" and it can go no further down, and there will be a spectacular recovery at that point (i think).

i am already buying stocks at a bargain basement price, and i hope to make very much money on the recovery.

other people will soon assume my attitude, and if you have 500 million optimistic greedy stock market players all starting to see bargains, those bargains will not remain for long.

no assets have truly disappeared. wealth is notional and notions will improve when they see the bottom later this year.

No matter how screwed the world is, at least we are still alive

This is weak point of Marx' theory: The though about the masses of workers of his time and oversaw the development of a class of qualified workers up the engineers with a university education. Because the work of - let's say - a worker with some years full time training is not the same like someone without any training the problem of the quantification of "average work" raises.

Marx does not have here an answer.



This is something you even with Marx: He described this process as the "Selbstentfremdung" of the capital, that the capital does become an institution in which the capitalist is just an part of the machinery, as well as the worker.



But capitalist systems have a control mechanism: Companies in which this friction becomes to dominant go bust. Even large one. I saw this on my own with the AEG; ones a company in pair with Siemens, after some restructuring no longer existing.

In a capitalistic system people go for the money.[/quote]

This is one factor - and an important one. There are more, like social status.

I saw this when I moved to the UK: The colleges I visited prior university had the title "vocational" college. I Germany it is big plus in a CV, because I did a full academic education and a vocational education too. Here in the UK an education with the attribute "vocational" does means for those how are too lazy or not bright enough for an academic eduction. So I "readjusted" my CV (for the US: Resume).

Such changes in the attitude are long term projects.

This is one factor - and an important one. There are more, like social status.

I saw this when I moved to the UK: The colleges I visited prior university had the title "vocational" college. I Germany it is big plus in a CV, because I did a full academic education and a vocational education too. Here in the UK an education with the attribute "vocational" does means for those how are too lazy or not bright enough for an academic eduction. So I "readjusted" my CV (for the US: Resume).

Such changes in the attitude are long term projects.[/quote]

Sand did not quite write, but I understand that is a computer glitch. Nevertheless there are reports that sciences are moving away from the USA. See http://digg.com/general_sciences/U.S._l ... dy?t=93157 It's not the greatest link but there are others with the same message

This is not least the result of a project of the EU started some years ago to put extra money into research. Institutions like the EMBL were beefed up significantly with public money and got special status for work permits etc.

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To go back to the question of economy: Even more important for the success on the international markets is a workforce of qualified engineers, not necessarily researchers, but highly qualified engineers, which are able to design high-tech products.