Do you value pain?

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Sand
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19 Mar 2009, 2:36 pm

Philothea wrote:

I believe suffering can be incredibly beautiful, when it is done out of love for someone else. Love and self-sacrifice are so intertwined, it would be hard to have one without the other. Sacrifice out of love begins to stop feeling like suffering anymore, because you are so willing to do it.

Think about parenthood. It begins with childbirth, one of the most horrible physical pains imaginable, but the reward is having a child to love, and so mothers don't really count the cost. They say "I would die for my child" as a way of expressing, "I am willing to suffer in the most ultimate way I know how, that is how very great my love is."

Or, think of the classic love story, Romeo and Juliet. Again, the ultimate pain, death, as an expression of sacrifice for another person, because they loved that person so, so much. I know this is real, I have felt it, I'm just sorry I'm describing it so poorly.

Frankly, I find pain disgusting and a goddamned nuisance. Childbirth is not beautiful because of pain but because a child is born. If you enjoy the pain you are a masochist. I do not enjoy the double suicide of Romeo and Juliet but am hugely saddened by the unnecessary confusion and misery and frustration of two people in love unable to fulfill the promise good lives because of the fundamental stupidity of their social environment.

Philothea
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19 Mar 2009, 5:58 pm

Thank you for sharing your opinion, Sand. You seem to have misunderstood what I was saying, so I'd like to clarify.

There is a certain honor in pain when it is accepted and endured with patience. The alternative when you get hurt is to cry and cuss, and throw a tantrum, which anyone will agree is less honorable (except in children, who aren't expected to know how to suffer with dignity).

I intended to say that the act of suffering honorably is elevated to an act of love when it is endured for the sake of another person. I was not advocating masochism.

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phil777
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19 Mar 2009, 6:03 pm

I have enough of mental pain, why would i need to add physical related pain? -.-

Philothea
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19 Mar 2009, 6:24 pm

Not only physical pain; I am talking about any kind of suffering. Even putting up with another person's annoying quirks is a type of suffering you can do for them.

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Magnus
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19 Mar 2009, 7:14 pm

Philothea wrote:

Quote:

There is a certain honor in pain when it is accepted and endured with patience. The alternative when you get hurt is to cry and cuss, and throw a tantrum, which anyone will agree is less honorable (except in children, who aren't expected to know how to suffer with dignity).

I intended to say that the act of suffering honorably is elevated to an act of love when it is endured for the sake of another person.

That is very beautiful.

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Philothea
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19 Mar 2009, 8:38 pm

Yes exactly! Thank you, Magnus. Pain can be beautiful. The end. Phew! LOL

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ruveyn
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19 Mar 2009, 8:47 pm

Philothea wrote:

I intended to say that the act of suffering honorably is elevated to an act of love when it is endured for the sake of another person. I was not advocating masochism.

Jesus H. Christ on a cross!! !.. What else can masochism be?

ruveyn

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19 Mar 2009, 8:49 pm

ZEGH8578 wrote:

pain is a mechanism

humans are logical

Only on occasion. Humans are driven more by passion than by logic.

Aristotle should have modified his definition to : Man is the sometimes rational animal.

ruveyn

twoshots
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19 Mar 2009, 9:22 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Philothea wrote:

I intended to say that the act of suffering honorably is elevated to an act of love when it is endured for the sake of another person. I was not advocating masochism.

Jesus H. Christ on a cross!! !.. What else can masochism be?

ruveyn

Well, masochism *could* (and often does) mean experiencing sexual gratification from pain.

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Magnus
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19 Mar 2009, 10:29 pm

Steel Magnolias comes to mind. Has anyone seen the play or movie? It seems like females can endure suffering and see the beauty in it. Where there is love, nothing ever fails.
I said before that before I've suffered, I was closer to my ideal self, but now I take that back.
Kids can't really understand profound emotions the way experienced adults can.

Philothea
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19 Mar 2009, 10:30 pm

Masochists want pain because it makes themselves feel good. I am talking about selfless pain. Pain you suffer for others, not yourself.

Like donating a kidney to your sister, for example. Surgery is not pleasurable. You don't personally get anything out of it but a big ugly scar, but you love your sister, so you want to do it for her anyways. You are suffering something for your sister, and not asking her to give anything back.

Here's another example. It's a hot day, and you and your son walk a long way to buy ice cream. Your son accidently drops his ice cream cone on the ground during the trip home. You give him your ice cream cone. You have the suffering (pain) of being hot and tired with no refreshing ice cream, but you do it out of love. There's nothing masochistic about that.

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Last edited by Philothea on 19 Mar 2009, 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

phil777
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19 Mar 2009, 10:32 pm

In biology, pain is supposed to be a message sent to the brain to signal it that the body is being put through something nocive for its health. Yet some people seem to think it's amusing or even beautiful to abuse such nervous system -.- -sigh- never understood why.

ruveyn
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19 Mar 2009, 10:49 pm

Philothea wrote:

Masochists want pain because it makes themselves feel good. I am talking about selfless pain. Pain you suffer for others, not yourself.

Every volitional act is selfish. When someone performs an act willingly they are trying to attain an end. The desire to attain an end is essentially selfish. There are no self-less acts as long as a self is acting.

ruveyn

Sand
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19 Mar 2009, 10:51 pm

Pain is negative. Period. It signifies something to avoid and repair. Nothing whatsoever beautiful there. People who delight in pain are somewhat insane.

Philothea
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19 Mar 2009, 11:40 pm

Deleted. Not worth it.

Last edited by Philothea on 20 Mar 2009, 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sand
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20 Mar 2009, 12:00 am

Philothea wrote:

Quote:

You can not prove this to me, and you can not really believe it yourself. If you honestly do, I am sorry for you because you have obviously never truly loved.

Quote:

Pain is negative. Period. It signifies something to avoid and repair. Nothing whatsoever beautiful there.

If I follow that logic, I will have no choice but to fear and avoid pain. There's a word for people who fear and avoid pain. "Cowards."

A coward is someone who avoids suffering which must be undergone to achieve a worthy goal. There is nothing worthy in suffering itself. Christianity which adulates the suffering of its model, Jesus, and inspires all sorts of maniacs to flagellate themselves for that reason was a religion born out of slavery for slaves to accept their status in return for imaginary rewards in an afterlife thus tolerating and elevating suffering which is basically anti-life and justified the power of the ruling elite. It is a wholly disgusting attitude and is reflected in the religious condemnation of the scientific improvements which fight disease and poverty.

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