Suicide

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You don't believe in true free will? Just because you don't believe in it doesn't mean that it is true. If you don't understand free will then you don't understand a very important piece in the puzzle. The Creator is real, the Creator made the universe, he made our souls, The Creator didn't make "everything". This is where you flaw and mislead the reader. Most of the things on this planet are man made, they are not made of The Creator, people used their free will and created imperfections. Think Plato and when he mentions the perfect world and how the things in this world are made imperfect.

The Creator does know everything, it knows how everything will play out, we aren't at the end yet my friend. You also have this wrong idea of "evil". Evil, I do not understand that. You are still thinking about man made concepts. There is no evil, there is only ignorance and imperfection. There is serving of the self, is that what you call "evil". This goes back to free will. The Creator gave you an option to either follow your selfish desires or to serve others.

Suffering comes as a result from deviating from the path back to The Creator or Self Knowledge. The person Suffers because their soul yearns to be back with The Creator and its understanding. Just as the body suffers from lack of food.

You are still thinking on man made terms. The Creator isn't a "he". The true Creator also doesn't ask you to worship it. You are still thinking on religious terms. Your mind has been brainwashed by religious concepts. I am not part of religion, neither Is The Creator. Again, The Creator does not ask you to worship it. The Creator wants you to realize that you too are a Creator. That is what is meant by being made in Its image. The true Creator asks that you acknowledge that all things come from it but you don't need to get on your knees and serve it. You serve the Creator best by helping others or by helping to create and not destroy.

Also, you are confused with what YOU are. Are you your body? Yes your mother and father made your body. But are you just your body? Are you just this hunk of flesh that consumes food, pisses and sh1ts? What about the Mind? You are also a mind. That is two autonomous processes, you wonder why there is so much conflict between the two. There is also a third process. The soul. That is your essence. That is what you need to really understand if you want to have true knowledge and to be happy. I have nothing to do with religion my friend.

See you are confused with what YOU are. It is fundamental to understand that a human being is three different processes. That is Mind/Body/Soul. The negative vices that you speak of are products of using free will to serve the self or to go on the destructive path. That has nothing to do with your soul, the perfect essence that The Creator has given you, that you must dig and find.

In your second paragraph you are describing processes of the mind. When you die, the soul leaves the body and mind behind. The mind and body is just your shell or your car and engine.

There is no need to apologize for your attacks. I cannot be attacked. I also do not have a pastor. You are still thinking on the low level of religion, that of which I am not affiliated with. You also can't pick apart what is universally true. I am come to an understanding of how things work I am implanting the seeds of universal truth into your mind and there is really nothing that you can do to stop it. Even if you try to, it will emerge in your subconscious and show you that what I am saying resonates with your soul. Once a person interacts with me, it changes them. For the better.

No. Science suggests it doesn't exist (due to the mechano-probabolistic nature of the Universe), but thankfully the feeling of Free Will exists. That's all that matters.



Agreed



But remember what I said? If God chose to create Free will which allows for evil (which I showed isn't necessary, then he knowingly created Evil. If a man releases a tiger into a hospital, he knowingly released something that would kill. So that man is a killer by proxy.

And Plato was wrong.



Good point. I'm sorry for making that logical fallacy. IF we acknowledge the validity of our feelings, if we think love and warmth and hunger and cold to be valid, then we acknowledge that we know what "evil" is, what "badness" is, what "suffering" is.



Now who's approaching Metaphysics in terms of man made concepts? "A desire for Credit" Is a very pety human thing, is it not?



Okay, so do do acknowledge the ego is a fleeting thing and it will die with the body yes? Then what would be "be" in the afterlife? Merely a window through which consciousness peeks? An observer, but not an actor? Sounds dull.



Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying this conversation. But you shouldn't pretend to have Universal Truth when you don't. No man knows for certain what is true, beyond a few basics ("I think, therefor I am"). I admire your tenacity, but I just don't think your beliefs are as consistent as you think they are. When you said:



You accepted that God is petty, that God himself (or herself ) thinks in terms of the petty human concepts you admit don't carry to Metaphysics. Checkmate?

"Suicide buys you a ticket straight to Hell. Who in their right mind thinks that God would openly accept someone into his kingdom for intentional ending the life that He graciously gave them."

that isn't even my quote. hahaha. Someone else said that, little fella.

Also when I said that The Creator asks that you acknowledge it, I was saying that you acknowledge it only when you realize The Creator through realizing the universe and yourself. The Creator doesn't have to ask or take credit for anything, It gets that when we have self affirmation.

and in the afterlife, you become full awareness of your soul and it's past and future. It is quite overwhelming. When you are in a body, your knowledge of what you are is held in check by the mind. When you are free from this, when you are free from the mind, then you get to experience your soul. When this happens and it will, it doesn't really matter to me if you believe it or not because IT WILL, then you will be overwhelmed totally. The soul is very familiar when you experience it directly. You will say, "Ah ha", so now I remember. When people have a near death experience one thing that they will feel is a familiarity that is indescribable. There are many things that your soul can do that the body and mind cannot. You will be wholly amazed.

Last edited by SaNcheNuSS on 24 Jan 2011, 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Right. That's embarrassing. No checkmate anyway

I suppose your Ideas are at least fairly self-consistent then, so you have evidently thought them out yourself, which is admirable. I still think what I've said implies that God knowingly created "evil" and "suffering", and created beings to whom those things would be important. Why would a God make it so that people would even want to commit suicide?

There you go using the word "evil" again. When you get the terminology right, you will understand the concept better. There is no evil, there is only misunderstanding, ignorance and serving the self. This of course is done through misapplied free will. Oh and your comment about science saying that we "feel like we have free will" is absolutely ridiculous, are you even really reading what that says? haha. It is basically agreeing with me but not wanting to admit it. Suffering is the same thing. The Creator did not make suffering. You suffer because you are not realizing something that you need to assimilate into your consciousness. Finally, The Creator didn't make you so that you would want to commit suicide. The Creator made you so that you would experience reality and all of its benefits. The negative thoughts and desires to commit suicide comes from people not willing to face certain obstacles in their life.

This is very important, of course....but why is it in PPR?

“LET me die. I am better off dead than alive.” Who said those words? Someone who didn’t believe in God? Someone who had left God? Someone whom God left? None of the above. The speaker was the devout but distraught man Jonah. (Jonah 4:3, Today’s English Version) The Bible doesn’t say that Jonah was about to take his life. Nevertheless, his desperate plea reveals a sobering fact—at times even a servant of God can be overwhelmed by anguish.—Psalm 34:19.

Some youths feel such intense despair that they see no reason to continue living. They may feel as did 16-year-old Laura, who states: “For years, I have had recurring bouts of depression. I often think about killing myself.” If you know someone who has expressed a desire to end it all—or if you have considered that idea yourself—what can you do? First, let’s take a closer look at why such a thought might occur.

Why would anyone consider taking his or her own life? A number of factors could be involved. For one thing, we live in “critical times hard to deal with,” and many adolescents feel the pressures of life with great intensity. (2 Timothy 3:1) Then, too, human imperfection can cause some to harbor deeply negative thoughts about themselves and the world around them. (Romans 7:22-24) Sometimes this is because of mistreatment. In other cases, a medical issue may be involved. Significantly, it is estimated in one country that more than 90 percent of those who did take their life were suffering from some type of mental illness.

Of course, no one is immune to adversity. Indeed, the Bible says that “all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together.” (Romans 8:22) That includes young people. In fact, youths can be profoundly affected by negative events, such as the following:

• The death of a relative, friend, or pet
• Family conflict
• Academic failure
• The breakup of a romance
• Mistreatment (including physical or sexual abuse)
• Social illness

Granted, sooner or later virtually all youths encounter one or more of the situations listed above. Why are some better equipped to ride out the storm than others? Experts say that youths who want to give up the fight feel utterly helpless and hopeless. In other words, such youths believe that there is nothing they can do to improve their plight, and they see no light on the horizon. Dr. Kathleen McCoy states “Quite often, these youths do not really want to die. They just want the pain to stop.”

You might know someone who ‘wants the pain to stop’—so much that he or she has expressed a desire to end it all. If that is the case, what can you do?

If a friend is distressed to the point of wanting to die, urge that person to get help. Then, regardless of how he or she feels about it, talk to a responsible adult. Don’t worry about ruining your friendship. By reporting the matter, you show that you’re a “true companion,” one who is “born for when there is distress.” (Proverbs 17:17) You may well save that person’s life!

But what if you yourself have had thoughts of ending it all? “Reach out,” urges Dr. McCoy. “Tell someone how you’re feeling—a parent, another relative, a friend, a teacher, a minister—someone who cares, who will take you seriously, listen to you, and help other important people in your life hear what you need to say.”

You have nothing to lose—and everything to gain—by talking out your problems. Consider a Bible example. At one point in his life, the righteous man Job said: “My soul certainly feels a loathing toward my life.” But then he added: “I will give vent to my concern about myself. I will speak in the bitterness of my soul!” (Job 10:1) Job was in despair, and he needed to talk about his pain. You may find some relief by confiding in a mature friend.

When undergoing distress, remember this: No matter how dire a situation may seem, in time things will change. The psalmist David, who was no stranger to adversity, said in prayer: “I have grown weary with my sighing; all night long I make my couch swim; with my tears I make my own divan overflow.” (Psalm 6:6) Yet, in another psalm he wrote: “You have changed my mourning into dancing for me.”—Psalm 30:11.

David knew from experience that life’s problems ebb and flow. True, some may seem overwhelming—at least for now. But be patient. Things change, often for the better. In some cases, problems might be alleviated in ways that you couldn’t have predicted. In other cases, you may discover a way of coping that you hadn’t considered. The point is, distressing problems will not stay the same forever.—2 Corinthians 4:17.

The most important form of communication you can have is prayer. You can pray as did David: “Search through me, O God, and know my heart. Examine me, and know my disquieting thoughts, and see whether there is in me any painful way, and lead me in the way of time indefinite.”—Psalm 139:23, 24.

Prayer is not a mere crutch. It is real communication with your heavenly Father, who wants you to “pour out your heart” to him. (Psalm 62:8) Consider the following basic truths about God:

• He is aware of the circumstances that contribute to your distress.—Psalm 103:14.
• He knows you better than you know yourself.—1 John 3:20.
• “He cares for you.”—1 Peter 5:7.
• In his new world, God will “wipe out every tear” from your eyes.—Revelation 21:4.

As mentioned earlier, suicidal feelings are often rooted in some type of illness. If that’s the case with you, do not be ashamed to seek help. Jesus acknowledged that those who are ailing need a physician. (Matthew 9:12) The good news is that many conditions can be treated. And treatment may help you to feel much better!

The Bible promises that in God’s new world, “no resident will say: ‘I am sick.’” (Isaiah 33:24) In the meantime, do your best to cope with life’s challenges. Heidi, who lives in Germany, did just that. “At times, my depression was so intense that I just wanted to die,” she says, “but now I have my life together again, thanks to persevering in prayer and receiving treatment.” The same can be true for you!

More articles from the “Young People Ask” series can be found here.

I'm well aware what concepts I am using. Evil isn't the best term perhaps, but Suffering and Existential Angst are valid. You seem to be trying to negate the value of these concepts to people, as a person. People experience the world in terms of Happiness and Sadness, and as a person I acknowledge the validity of those emotion. I am a rationalist, but I a rationalist human. I feel pain, I feel happiness. These things are damn important to every person. Every human cares about suffering, yet there is no way to explain why. We just do.

Sorry, now you aren't following my argument. You say God didn't create suffering. I say he did. Emotions are Biochemical. A big fat hit of Dopamine in the right part of the brain makes people feel transcendently happy. A lack of Seratonin in the wrong part drives them to suicide. If a Chemist can create drugs to alter mind chemistry, why the hell couldn't a God.



Why would a benevolent God do this. things like Emotions don't have to be metaphysically important, but your God made it the most important thing to us. Only a Malevolent God would do that, or at least a God all humans should despise.



It really isn't. People feel like they have free will, without having it. Learn a little neurology.

Benjamin Libet did an experiment which shows the brain has already decided to do something half a second before the person himself "decided" to do it. Read this if you don't believe me; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Libet



I don't suffer most of the time, and that assertion is mere opinion. I think a smack in the head, or seeing my impending doom is a source of my suffering.

The Creator made you so that you would experience reality and all of its benefits.

What Callista said.

I've been close, and I think if I believed in the kind of God who'd torture people for eternity when they already felt desperate enough to end their own lives, it'd have made me all the more desirous of not existing. Paradoxically, my belief to the contrary was part of what kept me wanting to live.

There is indeed too much blame in these situations, and not enough human compassion.

Those are man made ideas. The Creator did not create a hell for people to suffer for eternity. The Creator would never make it impossible for redemption. The whole purpose of our existence is to get back to the knowledge that we are Creators like our Creator and to understand The Creator through self awareness and our relationship to "others" and The Universe.

I believe that "evil" is not a material thing like raindrops or ice crystals in a cloud. Evil is simply the lack or privation of something good (absence of God). Evil can be likened to darkness in that darkness, like evil, cannot exist in and of itself. Darkness, which has no properties, can exist only in the absence or of light. Therefore, the absence of something good (personally choosing not to do that which is good), is the true maker of evil.

So this is how I would frame the argument:

God is real.
God created everything.
Evil is not a created thing (but an absence of something good).
Therefore, God did not create evil.

Excuse me, but which part of the bible claims that suicidal people go to hell?

Dante's Inferno, which seems to be taken by many as canon.



As a concept, it is naturally immaterial, although it does relate to material patterns that are observable. Amorality isn't that bad. There are people out their that are actively bad, not just failing to be good. And the above still wouldn't explain things like suffering, which wouldn't necessarily have to exist. Suffering is more than the absence of happiness.