Israel/Palestine, how to find out the truth??

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Homelands are pointless sentimentalism. Its better for the world if people just let the past go

The homeland of the human race is Africa.

ruveyn

total agreement here.
peope need to the best for themself and that is not living in a settlement.
(unless the settlement is outside San Diego)

If you take that attitude then the Israelis are in the right still.

Possession is 9/10ths of the law.

I don't think that looking at modern Europe as "fine" would do. You see, if the Jews created a state their, then another population would be displaced.

Do they need their own state? Presbyterians don't have our own state, and we've been doing all right.

I think the Israelis are fine just where they are and they have no intention of moving.

No more than the non-aboriginal population of North America and their descendants intend to move. No, we are not giving it back to the Indians and the Jews of Israel and not giving (it is not even back, by the way) to the Palestinians. The truth of the matter is that the original Jewish settler bought tracts of land from the Ottoman Empire, such tracts being barely populated because their agricultural yield was so so law. Jewish agronomists drained the swamps, flushed the salt from the soil and made the land grow. Then came the predecessors to the current Palestinian population. It was Jewish labor that provided food and jobs for them.

ruveyn

Having had the Israel experience I have no love for it.
no matter what the history is.
no matter what the claims are.
no matter what your nationalism or other superstitions are.
the best rational self-interested choice for any Jew (except Meyer Lansky)
is North America.

-Jake

I think the question of the Jews actually remaining in Israel is a closed one. I also think the same statement is true for the Palestinians. The establishment argument can be driven over again. I do not think, however, much will be gained from it.

If one wants to fix the issue, it may be better to make a list of what is a closed issue and then see what remains left to be solved. The international community has already done this and the steps to peace are actually well established. Arafat however made the choice not to die for Palestine and Netanyahu has made a similar, political, choice.

It is my view that the conflict will not be resolved until one of the leaders essentially commits a Michael Collins style sacrifice that shocks the population or enough of the people think the price of victory is not really worth it.

"Nothing is so rare in any man than an act of his own." - Emerson

In practice, you are right. In principle, well, that could be argued.

I have chosen not do to aliyah and go to Israel to live. Why? Because life is much more comfortable and safe for me right here, in the land in which I was born. I am Jewish in my soul but I am very American by practice.

ruveyn

ruveyn

The answer is simple. On which side of the divide do you stand? Are you with the Muslims (who have this really weird religion with all those restrictions and rituals)? Or do you stand with Israel which in essence has nothing to do with Judaism but more with the fact that it is incorporated into the Western capitalist world system and is supported by the "good guys"?

Who are the good guys?

Western capitalists governments who proclaim democracy and who support dictators when it suits them. Hosni Mubarak ring a bell? They are the world leaders, the controllers, the decision makers and their intentions can only be good. I mean how could any of their leaders make any foreign policy decisions not based on the concern of the poor helpless public citizens of crazy Muslim leaders?

Yes the same guys you vote for and who you trust with your taxes. If they support Israel then they automatically must be making the right choice. I mean they back Israel up even when they slaughter civilians? So there must be some justification behind it, right? Our leaders who where Italian crafted suits and who live in mansions surely won't support the bad guys, will they?

Tell me what would have happened if after WWII the British and Americans did not support the establishment of Israel? You the same people who give 1001 reasons as to why Palestinians are bad etc and why Israel is the most peace loving country in the world would never have supported Israel if your leaders didn't. You would be saying the same good things about Palestine if it was backed by your leaders. So in essence you support whoever you are told to and made to believe you should support. You will then find a million reasons to support your choice. And yes, myself as a Muslim do the same for Palestine.

So OP, to answer your question about what is the truth behind what is going on and who is wrong and who is right? Your answer depends on which side of the border you stay on.

There actually would currently be a Palestine if not for the other Arab Countries that tried to wipe the Israelis out less than 24 hours after they became a country. Heck the Palestinians would have had a lot more land too.

Israel offered peace only to be met with a bunch of people bent on their total annihilation.

fine lets split the difference I will do aliyah again when the mashiach writes me a written invitation.
until then america america america.
and not a cent out of my pocket till then either.
-Jake

Ascent is an ironic name for the action of moving into a hellhole surrounded by some of the worst ghettos in the world.

your telling me.