Why most Asperger don't believe in free will?

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enrico_dandolo
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12 Aug 2012, 11:01 pm

Nightreign wrote:
When I hear of the term ' Free will' I immediately think of absolute freedom and doing whatever you want. That includes the ugly actions such as murder, theft and etc. In the end, you have the will to do EVERYTHING you want to do, every single thing.

And even then what is the difference between free will and selfish will. Us human beings are selfish by very nature as it is a way to survive in this world. As such I believe that everything we do is ultimately selfish. Even if we do something for others we also do it because it is beneficial to us as well. Because why else would you do something?

The difference is that "absolute freedom", as you define it, obviously doesn't exist and is a useless concept. The core question of the free will vs. determinism debate is: "Can humans actively determin their behaviour?" The fact that human do not always kill each other on a whim a) is completely obvious and breeds no meaningful argument and b) does not work to solve this question. Your concept of free will is wrong.

I think no one can argue that environment (in the broad sense) and genes determin human behaviour, at least partly. Amongst those influences, many tend to prevent rape, murder and theft on a systematic basis. This is very much impossible to deny. The point of the debate is whether, beneath all of one's genetic predispositions, past conditionning, education, recent priming, etc., one still has a capacity to influence one's behaviour. Even if that happens once in every hundred "behaviour", however they be counted, this is still free will.

Nightreign wrote:
And I must ask, are you an agnostic? ( This has nothing to do with the original point of this post, but I do notice a similar thinking process.)

Indeed I am.



undefineable
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14 Aug 2012, 6:17 pm

Let's not forget that aspies typically find it harder (than most westerners do) to have what they 'will' for actualised. This isn't the same as not having free will - Believers in 'free will' will still define it as 'free' in the most unfavourable of societies and circumstances, even if -in practice- it would make more sense to describe it as 'captive will': Being autistic used to make me feel like a would-be ruler trying to win control of the lawless 'country' of my brain and my life - both inner and outer. I never let failure to achieve my goals affect this - For example, I made a habit of having enough self-honesty to say to myself that I would socialise more if it didn't go so wrong, recognising (though nowhere near enough) that it wouldn't go so wrong if I could tell wtf was going on half the time.

ryan93 wrote:
Look up the Libet experiments, and explain those away :P


Something I haven't seen pointed out before about those 'half-second delays':

Since the exact timing of a finger-tap is unlikely to effect our survival -or that of our genes- in any way, our conscious mind delegates the decision as to when to tap to unconscious brain mechanisms, which pick a time for us at random and begins the process of acting before we become aware of having 'chosen' a time at which to act.

If this says anything about 'free will', I'd first want to know what can be said to constitute freedom of will, since the decisions made by our power of will (the lack of which indicates that one is essentially an infant ofc) are shaped by goals that have evolved in nature, outside of ourselves. For will to be free in absolute terms, it would have to be free of both self-interest and the interests of anyone else, leaving no basis on which decisions could be made, such that the only outcomes that could be willed would be everything and nothing.

However, this doesn't mean our conscious mind makes all the more 'important' decisions - The conscious decision-making process weighs up input from conscious and unconscious processes from across the brain, and picks an outcome according to the nature of the processes it has developed the greatest affinity with. Inborn temperament, or else decisions and events that happen during one's formative years, are what determine which processes one will develop the greatest affinity with, so that, for example, impulsive people tend to pick whatever will make them feel best right now, whereas responsible types tend to pick the outcome that best guarantees a long-term payoff. I'm a firm believer, though, that it's never too late to change, although it does become more and more difficult, many potential solutions/outcomes (competitive sport for example) drifting out of the window once we reach maturity. When we remember that each of us is in a constant state of flux, the idea of limited choice, self-determination, or even free will starts to make more sense.



Last edited by undefineable on 14 Aug 2012, 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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14 Aug 2012, 6:22 pm

b9 wrote:
"free will" is just another way of saying "taking the path of least resistance"


In terms of the classic Christian doctrine of free will, isn't that just 'choosing evil'?! :twisted:



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14 Aug 2012, 6:25 pm

Free will is an illusion --

http://www.wired.com/science/discoverie ... _decision/

Quote:
Brain Scanners Can See Your Decisions Before You Make Them

You may think you decided to read this story -- but in fact, your brain made the decision long before you knew about it.

In a study published Sunday in Nature Neuroscience, researchers using brain scanners could predict people's decisions seven seconds before the test subjects were even aware of making them.

The decision studied -- whether to hit a button with one's left or right hand -- may not be representative of complicated choices that are more integrally tied to our sense of self-direction. Regardless, the findings raise profound questions about the nature of self and autonomy: How free is our will? Is conscious choice just an illusion?

"Your decisions are strongly prepared by brain activity. By the time consciousness kicks in, most of the work has already been done," said study co-author John-Dylan Haynes, a Max Planck Institute neuroscientist.

Haynes updated a classic experiment by the late Benjamin Libet, who showed that a brain region involved in coordinating motor activity fired a fraction of a second before test subjects chose to push a button. Later studies supported Libet's theory that subconscious activity preceded and determined conscious choice -- but none found such a vast gap between a decision and the experience of making it as Haynes' study has.

In the seven seconds before Haynes' test subjects chose to push a button, activity shifted in their frontopolar cortex, a brain region associated with high-level planning. Soon afterwards, activity moved to the parietal cortex, a region of sensory integration. Haynes' team monitored these shifting neural patterns using a functional MRI machine.

Taken together, the patterns consistently predicted whether test subjects eventually pushed a button with their left or right hand -- a choice that, to them, felt like the outcome of conscious deliberation. For those accustomed to thinking of themselves as having free will, the implications are far more unsettling than learning about the physiological basis of other brain functions.

Caveats remain, holding open the door for free will. For instance, the experiment may not reflect the mental dynamics of other, more complicated decisions.

"Real-life decisions -- am I going to buy this house or that one, take this job or that -- aren't decisions that we can implement very well in our brain scanners," said Haynes.

Also, the predictions were not completely accurate. Maybe free will enters at the last moment, allowing a person to override an unpalatable subconscious decision.

"We can't rule out that there's a free will that kicks in at this late point," said Haynes, who intends to study this phenomenon next. "But I don't think it's plausible."

That implausibility doesn't disturb Haynes.

"It's not like you're a machine. Your brain activity is the physiological substance in which your personality and wishes and desires operate," he said.

The unease people feel at the potential unreality of free will, said National Institutes of Health neuroscientist Mark Hallett, originates in a misconception of self as separate from the brain.

"That's the same notion as the mind being separate from the body -- and I don't think anyone really believes that," said Hallett. "A different way of thinking about it is that your consciousness is only aware of some of the things your brain is doing."

Hallett doubts that free will exists as a separate, independent force.

"If it is, we haven't put our finger on it," he said. "But we're happy to keep looking."



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14 Aug 2012, 6:52 pm

Nightreign wrote:
why else would you do something?


So as to override the following situation:

Nightreign wrote:
Even if we do something for others we also do it because it is beneficial to us as well



Last edited by undefineable on 14 Aug 2012, 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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14 Aug 2012, 6:59 pm

b9 wrote:
because my mind is built the way it is, i will always make the same decisions no matter how many times the same situation presents itself.

if i was born again and the dynamics of my life were identical to this life i have, i am sure i would make identical decisions as i made the first time around.

i am not capable of deciding to do something i do not wish to do (if i am free to decide), and so it is inevitable that i will decide the same course of action no matter how many times i am presented with the same choices.

i do not have free will because there is only one course of action in a situation i will take even if i was born 30 times over and lived this life 30 (or even an infinite ) times.

i may think i have free choice, but it is inevitable that i will similarly choose what i will do every time i am presented with the same circumstance.


My mind works the opposite way to yours. Ideally, I would never knowingly make the same decision twice, such that if I was made subject to the 'eternal return', I would repeat none of my original decisions. I sometimes deliberately do things I did not wish to do, just to see how I feel (which varies) and what happens

Nonetheless, since I don't believe in unlimited free will, I don't say or do all this just to make a point. :P



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15 Aug 2012, 4:06 am

Maybe, because, we generally think about life more? Maybe, because, generally, we're more logical? I'm biased, I don't believe in it much myself.


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15 Aug 2012, 9:18 am

undefineable wrote:
b9 wrote:
because my mind is built the way it is, i will always make the same decisions no matter how many times the same situation presents itself.

if i was born again and the dynamics of my life were identical to this life i have, i am sure i would make identical decisions as i made the first time around.

i am not capable of deciding to do something i do not wish to do (if i am free to decide), and so it is inevitable that i will decide the same course of action no matter how many times i am presented with the same choices.

i do not have free will because there is only one course of action in a situation i will take even if i was born 30 times over and lived this life 30 (or even an infinite ) times.

i may think i have free choice, but it is inevitable that i will similarly choose what i will do every time i am presented with the same circumstance.


My mind works the opposite way to yours. Ideally, I would never knowingly make the same decision twice, such that if I was made subject to the 'eternal return',
i am sorry that does not compute. there is no way for you to know whether you were faced with that decision before. i am also not sure i can correctly comprehend what you mean by the "the eternal return". if you are alluding to reincarnation, then i can tell you that i was not speaking from that perspective. i am saying that all decisions are inevitable.

undefineable wrote:
would repeat none of my original decisions. I sometimes deliberately do things I did not wish to do, just to see how I feel (which varies) and what happens
that is strange. i always do what is most attractive for me to do.

undefineable wrote:
Nonetheless, since I don't believe in unlimited free will, I don't say or do all this just to make a point. :P
i am sorry but i also can not respond to this as i have no idea what it means.



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15 Aug 2012, 10:06 am

i think we have free will, but... with Many-worlds interpretation everything is going to happen anyway



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15 Aug 2012, 1:37 pm

b9 wrote:
there is no way for you to know whether you were faced with that decision before.


I unknowingly repeat decisions, but when I feel any sense of deja-vu about a situation, I am likely to atleast consider a fresh outcome. Yes, I exaggerated by way of playing "Devil's Advocate", but I certainly have the option of being a lot more decisive -and not just in your "stubborn" sense- than I currently am. {Many people, NT as well as AS, don't consciously decide most things, but just go along with their habitual reactions so as to cope more easily with life; I'm not sure if this reflects what you were saying.}

b9 wrote:
i am also not sure i can correctly comprehend what you mean by the "the eternal return". if you are alluding to reincarnation, then i can tell you that i was not speaking from that perspective.


I mis-understood that you were referring to Nietzsche's thought experiment by that name - in which we imagine how we'd feel if we were to repeat our lives eternally without the ability to change anything about them {The 'Superman' would apparently be happy with this prospect :lol: } It makes no difference, though, if you were referring to repeated patterns within an ordinary life.

b9 wrote:
undefineable wrote:
would repeat none of my original decisions. I sometimes deliberately do things I did not wish to do, just to see how I feel (which varies) and what happens
that is strange. i always do what is most attractive for me to do.


I'm a strange man :P - Seriously though, some will feel more free if they try what I outlined, but I'm aware that many aspies cope with their condition by following fixed routines.

b9 wrote:
undefineable wrote:
Nonetheless, since I don't believe in unlimited free will, I don't say or do all this just to make a point. :P
i am sorry but i also can not respond to this as i have no idea what it means


I meant I wasn't BSing :wink: - I've already explained that 'free will' appears generally limited to willing whatever our 'selfish genes' want from us.

b9 wrote:
i am saying that all decisions are inevitable.


Your own experience of being a particular person with a particular temperament is insufficient as a basis for such a hindsight-heavy claim. Even if you've 'factored in' observation of others, it's unlikely that this includes direct observation of the minds of a sufficiently broad sample, particularly given your condition.



Last edited by undefineable on 16 Aug 2012, 4:00 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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15 Aug 2012, 1:42 pm

SteffiTheSmile wrote:
generally, we're more logical?


Are we? Don't forget that empirical evidence, rather than pure reason, forms the basis of the modern scientific worldview, since within reason(!) one can prove anything with a little logic. On that token, it's probably a truism to point out that auties 'miss' a lot of empirical evidence of the mind-states of others, given their/our difficulty in forming clear, accurate 'higher-level' intuitions.