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TM
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04 Nov 2012, 3:32 pm

marshall wrote:
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You do realize I was speaking to someone who identified as a Marxist and that anyone who identifies as a Marxist would have to accept at the very least his labor theory of value and TRPF from his economic theory. Furthermore, would also have to accept a means of transforming society from having individual property rights to collective ownership of the means of production, and collective operation of the means of production. Otherwise, one isn't really a Marxist, it's a bit like being a Christian who doesn't believe that Jesus was the son of God, that he rose from the dead, healed the sick, was born of a virgin, raised Lazarus from the dead, was crucified and died for our sins. It's a fancy title one gives oneself due to a need or desire to belong or identify with something but at it's core its self-deception.

I purely criticized Marxism on economic, ideological and historical grounds, then contrasted the consequences of capitalism (not just laissez faire capitalism, state capitalism or any form of capitalism, just plan 'ol capitalism.) with the observed consequences of Marxism. You created the argument of "laissez faire vs traditional Marxism" which was not my argument, which means you just made a straw man. I left open everything from social democracy with a market element to laissez faire capitalism, and the 50 shades of gray in between, hence the accusations of false dichotomy are wrong.

Fine. It's just that your contemptuous attack of Marxism is definitely not bias free. You don't express the same amount of outrage towards the acts of violence and exploitation perpetrated by capitalistic empires.

I'm not required to provide equal time to criticisms of capitalism in a post where I'm specifically criticizing Marxism. That's like me requiring someone to spend equal time criticizing feminism, democracy or conservatives on this board. I'm wondering which acts of violence you are speaking of, I've read Le Livre Noir du Capitalisme, and quite frankly found that most of the attempts by the authors to link capitalism to certain acts mentioned within the book were non sequiturs at best. The first and second world wars can hardly be attributed to capitalism, neither can anti-communist wars. However, there is potentially an argument to be made that anti-communist wars were motivated by democracy.

marshall wrote:
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Which criticisms are you referring to specifically?

Criticisms on the treatment of wage labor and finance as commodities indistinguishable from goods and services. I'm not just talking about the negative social consequences. Labor is fundamentally different from other forms of commodities from a market perspective as well. Also, the problem of perpetual increases in automation and cost-cutting measures undermining demand.


Wage labor is the selling of labor power by an individual or a collective group to a purchaser in exchange for an agreed upon amount. There is the criticism that wage labor is not a choice due to alternate ways of self-sustainment being removed, which at this point must be considered largely an anachronism when used in a modern society due to the complexity having evolved to a point where a single person or family cannot sustain themselves outside of either owning their own business or wage labor. The traditional peasant and hunter professions can simply not provide an adequate life anymore.

One could say that the "barriers of entry" for self-sustainment has increased, but that would have been a natural consequence with or without capitalism (and definitely under communism), due to the fact that the population keeps increasing and the land amount it zero-sum.

There is the criticism that wage labor is not voluntary as it is a result of economic necessity, which is a bit like arguing that stealing isn't a choice, if it is motivated by economic necessity. The argument gets murdered by reductio ad absurdum fairly quickly, I think Dostoevsky went through some of the same motions in "Crime and Punishment".

Finally there is the criticism regarding wage slavery, which relies heavily upon faulty argument from analogy in order to compare a voluntary employer - employee relationship.

Labor as a commodity distinct from goods and services is a bit strange since in the Western world we are largely becoming a service driven economy, in which labor power literally is a commodity being sold. The main difference between labor and other commodities is that it's renewable which means that unlike just about every other commodity is not zero-sum (finite amount), of course even Marx himself defined commodity in such a way as to make labor a commodity.

Automation is tricky, because while it does undermine demand for manual labor, it also shifts some of that demand to other things. Furthermore, automation is a better alternative in most cases to manual labor, so a suitable analogy would be to say that the motorcar undermined the demand for horses and buggies, but it also shifted most of that demand from said horses and buggies to the motorcar. I.E. demand remained near-constant, but became aimed at a different target.

Cost cutting is not as tricky, does it undermine demand? Yes. Is it for that reason always bad? No.

For not being like other commodities, labor sure behaves a lot like other commodities in terms of supply and demand.


marshall wrote:
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Seeing as TRPF has been proven inconsistent/wrong that somewhat kills off the Marxist criticism of capitalists as exploiters of workers. It's one of those "Marx criticizes capitalism from the point of view of his own ideology which has proven to be largely internally contradictory." which kind of takes the bite out of his criticisms.

Not really. The concept of exploitation can be explained using marginal theory as well. It can be said to occur when so-called "inferior goods" (jointly inelastic items, necessities) are traded for "superior goods" (jointly elastic items, non-necessities). In terms of consumption, the marginal utility of money decreases when it becomes less evenly distributed between individuals. TRPF and LTV are hardly necessary to explain exploitation.


If exploitation is defined as using another person's labor value without payment them adequate compensation, it can also be explained using neoclassical theory as a market inefficiency or failure of competition or using New liberalism as much the same. However doing so eliminates the need for the class focus of Marxism and without the class focus, Marxism starts to crumble. It's one of those, "If seen isolated, every piece of Marxism falls apart, it's only persuasive if read as a whole without critical thinking involved".

You're also using the terms "inferior good" and "superior good" wrong, a necessity can be a superior good as well an inferior good. In essence the difference between buying store brand ham at Wal-Mart or buying farm raised ham at a farmer's market. I assume you're speaking of items with strong and weak price elasticity, I.E items for which there is little effect on demand when the price moves, vs products where there is a high effect on demand when there is a price movement. In which case the subjective theory of value that originated in the Austrian school comes into play.

I do not really see how that could be used to explain exploitation though.



androbot2084
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04 Nov 2012, 3:58 pm

Although theoretically Communism is heaven on Earth the reason why Communism does not work is that it is usually implemented through means of violence and force which means property rights are violated. Communism goes way beyond just merely imposing a tax on the rich but actually confiscates all of their wealth. For Communism to work the rich would have to voluntarily give up their wealth in exchange for immortality. And even then if people are too selfish, Communism would be the worst form of government for them because if everyone freeloaded they would be a burden. This is not to say that Communism is impossible. because if work were fun people would be motivated to work without monetary compensation. We already have a fiat currency called paper money that people work for even though it is worthless from a material perspective.



cubedemon6073
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05 Nov 2012, 1:05 am

There is an assumption about ultimate truths and that it is an end. Why can't seeking ultimate truth(s) be a process instead of an end result? Why can't the process of seeking ultimate truth(s) be the ultimate truth? Instead of holding our beliefs, morality, science, philosophies, politics, economic theories etc as though they are truths why can't we just accept our own fallibility like Soros says and from time to time check for actual flaws?

Putting it into more mathematical terms to obtain ultimate truth as an end to obtain ultimate truth(s) as an end will require one to reach infinity. Reaching infinity is an impossible goal to obtain because infinity is boundless. What I say is contradictory but therein lies the whole point. We will always have contradictions in a given system someway somehow.

By what Kurt Godel says we can never have a system that is complete and consistent. Therefore, a system will always need to be improved in someway. Old models have to be scrapped or revamped. Saying it in a more metaphorical, way we will always have flies in the ointment in someway. We can remove flies but we can never remove all of them. From my observations, the more complex a system is the more likely we will find a contradiction somewhere and in a more simpler system it will more than likely be free of contradictions.

The previous sentence is contradictory but again that is the whole point. If one considers all systems as members a set of a supersystem then we will have some subsystems that will not have contradictions. Therein lies the fly in even Godel's Incompleteness theorms. Yet, it is not a fly at all because it becomes a process and not an end. The process and the end become one.



Last edited by cubedemon6073 on 05 Nov 2012, 8:33 am, edited 3 times in total.

DancingDanny
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05 Nov 2012, 4:15 am

We ought to make up a Godwin's Law like meme for Marxism. It seems like every argument inevitably leads to Marxism here.



cubedemon6073
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05 Nov 2012, 8:26 am

DancingDanny wrote:
We ought to make up a Godwin's Law like meme for Marxism. It seems like every argument inevitably leads to Marxism here.


Agreed. There are fallacies that is made when refering to Marxism. Communism was Marx's solution to what he saw as the problems of capitalism. There are those who seem to think that just because the solution to an issue is faulty it seems to mean that the perceived issue to something is faulty as well. It may be that the perceived issue with something may be being looked at in a faulty way but that is not what I am saying.

What I am saying is that a faulty solution does not always imply that the issues themselves are always faulty. Just because Marx's communist solution was faulty does not mean that capitalism is not flawed in someway. It could be that the cure is worse than the disease but the disease still could possibly exist.

In fact, the solution may have parts that are sound. Even within a solution just because one or more parts are faulty does not mean all parts are always faulty. Finally, just because something does not work in one set of conditions does not mean it it will never won't work in another set of conditions. These are fallacies I see right wingers and even some left wingers commit.



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05 Nov 2012, 9:18 am

TM wrote:
marshall wrote:
Quote:
Seeing as TRPF has been proven inconsistent/wrong that somewhat kills off the Marxist criticism of capitalists as exploiters of workers. It's one of those "Marx criticizes capitalism from the point of view of his own ideology which has proven to be largely internally contradictory." which kind of takes the bite out of his criticisms.

Not really. The concept of exploitation can be explained using marginal theory as well. It can be said to occur when so-called "inferior goods" (jointly inelastic items, necessities) are traded for "superior goods" (jointly elastic items, non-necessities). In terms of consumption, the marginal utility of money decreases when it becomes less evenly distributed between individuals. TRPF and LTV are hardly necessary to explain exploitation.


If exploitation is defined as using another person's labor value without payment them adequate compensation, it can also be explained using neoclassical theory as a market inefficiency or failure of competition or using New liberalism as much the same. However doing so eliminates the need for the class focus of Marxism and without the class focus, Marxism starts to crumble. It's one of those, "If seen isolated, every piece of Marxism falls apart, it's only persuasive if read as a whole without critical thinking involved".

You're also using the terms "inferior good" and "superior good" wrong, a necessity can be a superior good as well an inferior good. In essence the difference between buying store brand ham at Wal-Mart or buying farm raised ham at a farmer's market. I assume you're speaking of items with strong and weak price elasticity, I.E items for which there is little effect on demand when the price moves, vs products where there is a high effect on demand when there is a price movement. In which case the subjective theory of value that originated in the Austrian school comes into play.

I do not really see how that could be used to explain exploitation though.


Replacing the Labor Theory of Value with the Marginal Theory of Value does not rationalize away exploitation.

I will explain exploitation in the simplest terms. Suppose you are stranded on a desert island and you are going to die through dehydration in less than three days. By pure happenstance I come by in a boat. You are overjoyed until I let you know that you may purchase your own rescue for the price of your wife, family, and house. It would not be in your "rational best interest" to refuse my offer as we both stand to gain substantial marginal utility through our mutual contract. But something tells me (assuming you're not a complete imbecile) that you will either respond irrationally by cursing me and showing me the bird, or more likely you will pretend to accept my offer knowing full well that I won't be able to get the state court system to enforce the terms of our agreement should you later refuse to pay up.

This scenario and certain "wage slavery" scenarios only differs in degree, not substance. If the alternative is death, I can offer to rescue you at practically any price you can pay. I.e. the price of being rescued is almost perfectly inelastic with respect to your demand in the predicament described. On the other hand the price of your house in any reasonable market will be much more elastic. The bottom line is the common moral intuition of non-psychopaths kind of goes against the "anything goes as long as there's no coercion" stance of capitalism. In this sense Marx had a perfectly valid point. He believed class division allowed capitalists to collectively abandon their normal moral intuition and justify exploitation. If you look at the average working conditions in the 19th century I believe Marx was 100% correct in this assessment.

As for the "inferior good" vs "superior good" I was just trying to use neoclassical jargon and based on the literal textbook definition I read the items need not be in the same category. I would come up with a better system of classifying commodities though. The true market can be divided into categories of goods such that goods within a specific category are more readily substituted for each other. At low incomes goods belonging to different "needs" categories are not as readily substitutable. If you're already paying the cheapest rent and buying the cheapest food you aren't going to be able to adjust your budget by substituting more food for less rent or vice versa. This will make the categories as a whole price-inelastic even though in-category substitutions might cause individual commodities to appear elastic by themselves. Also, as society becomes more technologically advanced certain commodities that were previously deemed "convenience" goods (i.e. time and effort saving) start to behave more like needs. In 1912 owning a car was a convenience. These days it's more like a need, especially in places without good public transportation.



TM
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05 Nov 2012, 12:40 pm

marshall wrote:
TM wrote:
marshall wrote:
Quote:
Seeing as TRPF has been proven inconsistent/wrong that somewhat kills off the Marxist criticism of capitalists as exploiters of workers. It's one of those "Marx criticizes capitalism from the point of view of his own ideology which has proven to be largely internally contradictory." which kind of takes the bite out of his criticisms.

Not really. The concept of exploitation can be explained using marginal theory as well. It can be said to occur when so-called "inferior goods" (jointly inelastic items, necessities) are traded for "superior goods" (jointly elastic items, non-necessities). In terms of consumption, the marginal utility of money decreases when it becomes less evenly distributed between individuals. TRPF and LTV are hardly necessary to explain exploitation.


If exploitation is defined as using another person's labor value without payment them adequate compensation, it can also be explained using neoclassical theory as a market inefficiency or failure of competition or using New liberalism as much the same. However doing so eliminates the need for the class focus of Marxism and without the class focus, Marxism starts to crumble. It's one of those, "If seen isolated, every piece of Marxism falls apart, it's only persuasive if read as a whole without critical thinking involved".

You're also using the terms "inferior good" and "superior good" wrong, a necessity can be a superior good as well an inferior good. In essence the difference between buying store brand ham at Wal-Mart or buying farm raised ham at a farmer's market. I assume you're speaking of items with strong and weak price elasticity, I.E items for which there is little effect on demand when the price moves, vs products where there is a high effect on demand when there is a price movement. In which case the subjective theory of value that originated in the Austrian school comes into play.

I do not really see how that could be used to explain exploitation though.


Replacing the Labor Theory of Value with the Marginal Theory of Value does not rationalize away exploitation.

I will explain exploitation in the simplest terms. Suppose you are stranded on a desert island and you are going to die through dehydration in less than three days. By pure happenstance I come by in a boat. You are overjoyed until I let you know that you may purchase your own rescue for the price of your wife, family, and house. It would not be in your "rational best interest" to refuse my offer as we both stand to gain substantial marginal utility through our mutual contract. But something tells me (assuming you're not a complete imbecile) that you will either respond irrationally by cursing me and showing me the bird, or more likely you will pretend to accept my offer knowing full well that I won't be able to get the state court system to enforce the terms of our agreement should you later refuse to pay up.

This scenario and certain "wage slavery" scenarios only differs in degree, not substance. If the alternative is death, I can offer to rescue you at practically any price you can pay. I.e. the price of being rescued is almost perfectly inelastic with respect to your demand in the predicament described. On the other hand the price of your house in any reasonable market will be much more elastic. The bottom line is the common moral intuition of non-psychopaths kind of goes against the "anything goes as long as there's no coercion" stance of capitalism. In this sense Marx had a perfectly valid point. He believed class division allowed capitalists to collectively abandon their normal moral intuition and justify exploitation. If you look at the average working conditions in the 19th century I believe Marx was 100% correct in this assessment.


In order to make your argument work, you're using a premise that is only implicit, namely that there is no market, there is a monopoly.

marshall wrote:
As for the "inferior good" vs "superior good" I was just trying to use neoclassical jargon and based on the literal textbook definition I read the items need not be in the same category. I would come up with a better system of classifying commodities though. The true market can be divided into categories of goods such that goods within a specific category are more readily substituted for each other. At low incomes goods belonging to different "needs" categories are not as readily substitutable. If you're already paying the cheapest rent and buying the cheapest food you aren't going to be able to adjust your budget by substituting more food for less rent or vice versa. This will make the categories as a whole price-inelastic even though in-category substitutions might cause individual commodities to appear elastic by themselves. Also, as society becomes more technologically advanced certain commodities that were previously deemed "convenience" goods (i.e. time and effort saving) start to behave more like needs. In 1912 owning a car was a convenience. These days it's more like a need, especially in places without good public transportation.


This is assuming that the cheapest rent and the cheapest foods are not elastic, if I understand your argument correctly.



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05 Nov 2012, 1:32 pm

2000 years ago Christians lived under communism. Communism did not work because everyone started to free load. So the Apostle told everyone that if you don't work you don't eat so get a job and buy your own food. This has been the mantra of capitalism ever since. So why did the Church experiment with communism in the first place? Because communism would have worked if everyone behaved just like Jesus.



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05 Nov 2012, 5:43 pm

TM wrote:
In order to make your argument work, you're using a premise that is only implicit, namely that there is no market, there is a monopoly.

As long as there are many more people in need of work than there are firms employing them the firms will have effective monopoly power over the workers. Large multi-national firms also take advantage of the limited mobility of workers (if the Chinese could freely and easily immigrate to western countries they would be able to demand higher wages). They are effectively trapped on the island IMO.
Quote:
marshall wrote:
As for the "inferior good" vs "superior good" I was just trying to use neoclassical jargon and based on the literal textbook definition I read the items need not be in the same category. I would come up with a better system of classifying commodities though. The true market can be divided into categories of goods such that goods within a specific category are more readily substituted for each other. At low incomes goods belonging to different "needs" categories are not as readily substitutable. If you're already paying the cheapest rent and buying the cheapest food you aren't going to be able to adjust your budget by substituting more food for less rent or vice versa. This will make the categories as a whole price-inelastic even though in-category substitutions might cause individual commodities to appear elastic by themselves. Also, as society becomes more technologically advanced certain commodities that were previously deemed "convenience" goods (i.e. time and effort saving) start to behave more like needs. In 1912 owning a car was a convenience. These days it's more like a need, especially in places without good public transportation.

This is assuming that the cheapest rent and the cheapest foods are not elastic, if I understand your argument correctly.

By "cheap" I meant low quality, not necessarily low price. I may be confused myself a little, the intuition is there but I'm having trouble explaining it all explicitly. I'll try to explain. The problem is elasticity isn't necessarily the right term as the demand for individual low quality food items can still be elastic. However, this elasticity is going to be a result of substituting one low quality food item for another low quality item as the relative prices change.

What I'm really saying is that the total income spent on low quality food by the average low income individual will be more a function of fixed nutritional needs than preference for buying more or less total food. The same goes for shelter and utilities. A low income budget doesn't have as much wiggle room in terms of adjustment between basic categories of goods as most of the utility is going to provide the bare minimum through the cheapest quality items available on the market. Higher incomes have increasing flexibility because they can choose to purchase higher quality goods in one category vs. lower quality in a different category based on pure preference. Their budget isn't locked in.

This would make the market for higher quality goods more volatile. This means countries that no longer manufacture standard or low quality goods will be more prone to a crisis. When we loose middle class discretionary spending the economy hurts badly. The foreclosure crisis pushed a ton of people out of the discretionary quality zone and thus the entire economy is hurting.