I see a lot of Christian haters on this forum.

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Booyakasha
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Joined: 6 Oct 2009
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Posts: 13,898

01 Aug 2011, 6:06 am

Ancalagon wrote:


There are parts of the Bible that matter more than others. There are famous verses about love and kindness and not being arrogant that are worth more than a hundred thousand verses on trivial details about the names of someone's mothers' parents.


Then what about these inconsistencies?



If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
(Luke 14:26)

If a man say, 'I love God,' and he hateth his brother, he is a liar; for he that loves not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
(1 John 4:20)

Also:


Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is unforgivable
(Matthew 12:31-32)


Believers are justified in all things.
(Acts 13:39)


John the Baptist is Elias
(Matthew 11:14)


John the Baptist isn't Elias
(John 1:21)


I came not to send peace, but a sword.
(Matthew 10:34)


... all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
(Matthew 26:52, Revelations 13:10)


And a few more:

Quote:
ZE 11:12-13 Mentions "thirty pieces" and could possibly be thought to be connected with the Potter's Field prophesy referred to in Matthew.
MT 27:9 Jeremiah is given as the source of the prophesy regarding the purchase of the Potter's Field. (Note: There is no such prophesy in Jeremiah.)

MT 1:16 Jacob was Joseph's father.
LK 3:23 Heli was Joseph's father.

MT 1:17 There were twenty-eight generations from David to Jesus.
LK 3:23-38 There were forty-three.

MT 1:18-21 The Annunciation occurred after Mary had conceived Jesus.
LK 1:26-31 It occurred before conception.

MT 1:20 The angel spoke to Joseph.
LK 1:28 The angel spoke to Mary.

MT 1:20-23, LK 1:26-33 An angel announces to Joseph and/or Mary that the child (Jesus) will be "great," the "son of the Most High," etc., and ....
MT 3:13-17, MK 1:9-11 The baptism of Jesus is accompanied by the most extraordinary happenings, yet ....
MK 3:21 Jesus' own relatives (or friends) attempt to constrain him, thinking that he might be out of his mind, and ....
MK 6:4-6 Jesus says that a prophet is without honor in his own house (which certainly should not have been the case considering the Annunciation and the Baptism).

MT 1:23 He will be called Emmanuel (or Immanuel).
MT 1:25 Instead, he was called Jesus.

MT 2:13-16 Following the birth of Jesus, Joseph and Mary flee to Egypt, (where they stay until after Herod's death) in order to avoid the murder of their firstborn by Herod. Herod slaughters all male infants two years old and under. (Note: John the Baptist, Jesus' cousin, though under two is somehow spared without fleeing to Egypt.)
LK 2:22-40 Following the birth of Jesus, Joseph and Mary remain in the area of Jerusalem for the Presentation (about forty days) and then return to Nazareth without ever going to Egypt. There is no slaughter of the infants.

MT 3:11-14, JN 1:31-34 John realized the true identity of Jesus (as the Messiah) either prior to the actual Baptism, or from the Baptism onward. The very purpose of John's baptism was to reveal Jesus to Israel.
MT 11:2-3 After the Baptism, John sends his disciples to ask if Jesus is the Messiah.

MT 3:12, 13:42 Hell is a furnace of fire (and must therefore be light).
MT 8:12, 22:13, 25:30 Hell is an "outer darkness" (and therefore dark).

MT 3:16, MK 1:10 It was Jesus who saw the Spirit descending.
JN 1:32 It was John who saw the Spirit descending.

MT 3:17 The heavenly voice addressed the crowd: "This is my beloved Son."
MK 1:11, LK 3:22 The voice addressed Jesus: "You are my beloved Son...."

MT 4:1-11, MK 1:12-13 Immediately following his Baptism, Jesus spent forty days in the wilderness resisting temptation by the Devil.
JN 2:1-11 Three days after the Baptism, Jesus was at the wedding in Cana.

MT 4:5-8 The Devil took Jesus to the pinnacle of the temple, then to the mountain top.
LK 4:5-9 First to the mountain top, then to the pinnacle of the temple.

MT 4:18-20, MK 1:16-18 (One story about choosing Peter as a disciple.)
LK 5:2-11 (A different story.)
JN 1:35-42 (Still another story.)

MT 5:1 - 7:29 Jesus delivers his most noteworthy sermon while on the mount.
LK 6:17-49 Jesus delivers his most noteworthy sermon while on the plain. (Note: No such sermons are mentioned in either MK or JN and Paul seems totally unfamiliar with either the sermon on the mount or the sermon on the plain.)

MT 5:16 Good works should be seen.
MT 6:1-4 They should be kept secret.

MT 5:17-19, LK 16:17 Jesus underscores the permanence of the law.
LE 10:8 - 11:47, DT 14:3-21 The law distinguishes between clean and unclean foods.
MK 7:14-15, MK 7:18-19 Jesus says that there is no such distinction.
TI 4:1-4 All foods are clean according to Paul.

MT 5:17-19, LK 16:17 Jesus did not come to abolish the law.
EP 2:13-15, HE 7:18-19 Jesus did abolish the law.

MT 5:22 Anyone who calls another a fool is liable to Hell.
MT 7:26 Jesus says that anyone who hears his words and does not do them is a fool. (Note: The translation now prevalent, "like a foolish man," in MT 7:26 is a dishonest attempt to alleviate the obvious inconsistency here in that the oldest Greek manuscripts use the same Greek word translated "fool" in MT 5:22 and "like a foolish man" in MT 7:26.)
MT 23:17-19 Jesus twice calls the Pharisees blind fools.
MT 25:2, 3, 8 Jesus likens the maidens who took no oil to fools. (Note: Again, this is the same Greek word translated "fool" in MT 5:22 and MT 23:17-19.)
1CO 1:23, 3:18, 4:10 Paul uses fool with regard to Christians becoming fools for Christ. (Note: Again, this is the same Greek word translated "fool" in MT 5:22 and MT 23:17-19.)

MT 5:22 Anger by itself is a sin.
EP 4:26 Anger is not necessarily a sin.

MT 5:22 Anger by itself is a sin.
MT 11:22-24, LK 10:13-15 Jesus curses the inhabitants of several cities who are not sufficiently impressed with his mighty works.
MT 21:19, MK 11:12-14 Jesus curses a fig tree when it fails to bear fruit out of season.
MK 3:5 Jesus looks around "angrily."

MT 5:32 Divorce, except on the grounds of unchastity, is wrong.
MK 10:11-12 Divorce on any grounds is wrong.

MT 5:39, MT 5:44 Jesus says: "Do not resist evil. Love your enemies."
MT 6:15, 12:34, 16:3, 22:18, 23:13-15, 17, 19, 27, 29, 33, MK 7:6, LK 11:40, 44, 12:56 Jesus repeatedly hurls epithets at his opponents.

MT 5:39, MT 5:44 Do not resist evil. Love your enemies.
LK 19:27 God is likened to one who destroys his enemies.

MT 5:39, MT 5:44 Do not resist evil. Love your enemies.
JN 1:9-11 Shun anyone who does not hold the proper doctrine.
MT 5:43-44, MT 22:39 Love your enemies. Love your neighbor as yourself.
MT 10:5 Go nowhere among the Gentiles nor enter a Samaritan town.

MT 5:45, 7:21 God resides in heaven.
MK 13:32 The angels reside in heaven
AC 7:55, HE 12:2 Jesus is at the right hand of God, in heaven.
1PE 1:3-4 Believers will inherit eternal life in heaven.
MT 24:35, MK 13:31, LK 21:33 Heaven will pass away.

MT 6:13 God might lead us into temptation and it is better avoided.
JA 1:2-3 Temptation is joy.

MT 6:13 Jesus' prayer implies that God might lead us into temptation.
JA 1:13 God tempts no one.

MT 6:25-34, LK 12:22-31 Take no thought for tomorrow. God will take care of you.
TI 5:8 A man who does not provide for his family is worse than an infidel. (Note: Providing for a family certainly involves taking "thought for tomorrow.")

MT 7:1-2 Do not judge.
MT 7:15-20 Instructions for judging a false prophet.

MT 7:7-8, LK 11:9-10 Ask and it will be given. Seek and you will find.
LK 13:24 Many will try to enter the Kingdom but will be unable.

MT 7:21 Not everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
AC 2:21, RO 10:13 Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
AC 2:39 Those God calls to himself will be saved.

MT 7:21, LK 10:36-37, RO 2:6, 13, JA 2:24 We are justified by works, not by faith.
JN 3:16, RO 3:20-26, EP 2:8-9, GA 2:16 We are justified by faith, not by works.

MT 8:5-12 The centurion himself approaches Jesus to ask to heal his servant.
LK 7:2-10 The centurion sends elders to do the asking.

MT 8:16, LK 4:40 Jesus healed all that were sick.
MK 1:32-34 Jesus healed many (but not all).

MT 8:28-33 Two demoniacs are healed in the Gadarene swine incident.
MK 5:2-16, LK 8:26-36 One demoniac is healed in this incident.

MT 9:18 The ruler's daughter was already dead when Jesus raised her.
LK 8:42 She was dying, but not dead.

MT 10:1-8 Jesus gives his disciples the power to exorcise and heal...
MT 17:14-16 (Yet) the disciples are unable to do so.

MT 10:2, MK 3:16-19 The twelve apostles (disciples) were: Simon (Peter), Andrew his brother, James the son of Zebedee, John his brother, Philip, Bartholemew, Thomas, Matthew the tax collector, James the son of Alphaeus, Thaddaeus (Labbaeus), Simon, and Judas Iscariot.
LK 6:13-16 The above except that Thaddaeus (Labbaeus) is excluded, and Judas the son of James is added (and Judas Iscariot remains).
AC 1:13, 26 Same as MT and MK except that, like LK Thaddaeus (Labbaeus) is excluded, Judas the son of James is included, and Mathias is chosen by the others to replace Judas Iscariot.

MT 10:2, 5-6 Peter was to be an apostle to the Jews and not go near the Gentiles.
AC 15:7 He was an apostle to the Gentiles.

MT 10:10 Do not take sandals (shoes) or staves.
MK 6:8-9 Take sandals (shoes) and staves.

MT 10:34, LK 12:49-53 Jesus has come to bring a sword, fire, and division--not peace.
JN 16:33 Jesus says: "In me you have peace."

MT 10:22, 24:13, MK 13:13 He that endures to the end will be saved.
MK 16:16 He that believes and is baptized will be saved.
JN 3:5 Only he that is born of water and Spirit will be saved.
AC 16:31 He that believes on the Lord Jesus will be saved.
AC 2:21 He that calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.
RO 10:9 He who confesses with his mouth "Jesus is Lord" and believes in his heart that God raised him from the dead will be saved.
1JN 4:7 He who loves is born of God (and presumably will be saved.)

MT 10:28, LK 12:4 Jesus says not to fear men. (Fear God only.)
MT 12:15-16, JN 7:1-10, 8:59, 10:39, 11:53-54 Jesus hid, escaped, went secretly, etc.

MT 11:7-15, 17:12-13 Jesus says that John the Baptist was a prophet, and more.
JN 1:21 John himself says that he is not a prophet, nor is he Elijah.

MT 11:25, MK 4:11-12 Jesus thanks God for hiding some things from the wise while revealing them to "babes." He says that he uses parables so that the meaning of some of his teachings will remain hidden to at least some persons, and specifically so that they will not turn and be forgiven.
MK 4:22 Jesus says that all things should be made known.

MT 11:29 Jesus says that he is gentle (meek) and humble (lowly).
JN 2:15 Jesus makes a whip of cords, drives the money changers from the Temple, overturns their tables, and pours out their coins. (Note: The presence of the money changers in the outer court of the Temple had been authorized by the Temple authorities and was, in fact, a necessity since the Jews would not accept Roman coin for the purchase of sacrifices.)

MT 12:5 Jesus says that the law (OT) states that the priests profane the Sabbath but are blameless. (No such statement is found in the OT.

MT 12:30 Jesus says that those who are not with him are against him.
MK 9:40 Jesus says that those who are not against him are for him.
(Note: This puts those who are indifferent or undecided in the "for him" category in the first instance and in the "against him" category in the second instance.)

MT 12:39, MK 8:12, LK 11:29 Jesus says that he will give no "sign."
JN 3:2, 20:30, AC 2:22 Jesus proceeds to give many such "signs."

MT 13:34, MK 4:34 Jesus addresses the crowds only in parables, so that they would not fully understand. He explains the meaning only to his disciples.
JN 1:1 - 21:25 (Throughout the book of John, unlike the other Gospels, Jesus addresses the crowds in a very straightforward manner. He does not employ parables.)

MT 13:58, MK 6:5 In spite of his faith, Jesus is not able to perform mighty miracles.
MT 17:20, 19:26, MK 9:23, 10:27, LK 17:6, 18:27 Jesus says that anything is possible to him who believes if he has the faith of a grain of mustard seed. All things are possible with God. A mountain can be commanded to move and it will move.

MT 5:37, 15:19, MK 7:22, JN 8:14, 44, 14:6, 18:37 Jesus says that you should answer a plain "yes" or "no," that his purpose is to bear witness to the truth, and that his testimony is true. He equates lying with evil.
JN 7:2-10 Jesus tells his brothers that he is not going to Jerusalem for the Feast of the Tabernacles, then later goes secretly by himself. (Note: The words "not yet" were added to some versions at JN 7:8 in order to alleviate this problem. The context at JN 7:10 makes the deception clear, however.)

MT 16:6, 11 Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
MK 8:15 Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Herod.

MT 16:18 Jesus founds his church on Peter and will give him the keys of the kingdom.
MT 16:23 Jesus calls Peter [a] "Satan" and "a hindrance," and accuses him of being on the side of men rather than that of God.

MT 16:18 Jesus founds his church on Peter and will give him the keys of the kingdom.
AC 15:1-21 James presides over the first Council of Jerusalem and formulates the decree regarding the accepting of Gentiles which is sent to the other churches. (Note: Tradition has it that James was appointed as the first Bishop or Pope, not Peter.)

MT 17:1-2 The Transfiguration occurs six days after Jesus foretells his suffering.
LK 9:28-29 It takes place about eight days afterwards.

MT 20:20-21 The mother of James and John asks Jesus a favor for her sons.
MK 10:35-37 They ask for themselves.

MT 20:23, MK 10:40 Jesus responds that it is not his to give.
MT 28:18, JN 3:35 All authority has been given to Jesus.

MT 20:29-34 Jesus heals two blind men on the way to Jericho.
MK 10:46-52 He heals one blind man.

MT 21:1-17 The sequence was: triumphal entry, cleansing of the temple, Bethany.
MK 11:1-19 Triumphal entry, cleansing of the temple.
LK 19:28-48 Triumphal entry, cleansing of the temple, daily teaching in the temple.
JN 12:1-18 Cleansing of the temple (early in his career), Supper with Lazarus, triumphal entry, no cleansing of the temple following the triumphal entry.

MT 21:2-6, MK 11:2-7, LK 19:30-35 The disciples follow Jesus instructions and bring him the animal (or animals, in the case of MT).
JN 12:14 Jesus finds the animal himself.

MT 21:7 Jesus rides two animals during his triumphal entry.
MK 11:7, LK 19:35, JN 12:14 Only one animal is involved.

MT 21:12-13 The cleansing of the temple occurs at the end of Jesus' career.
JN 2:13-16 It occurs near the beginning of his career.

MT 21:19-20 The fig tree withers immediately after being cursed by Jesus. The disciples notice and are amazed.
MK 11:13-14, 20-21 The disciples first notice that the tree has withered the day following.

MT 23:35 Jesus says that Zacharias (Zechariah) was the son of Barachias (Barachiah).
2CH 24:20 Zacharias was actually the son of Jehoida, the priest.
(Note: The name Barachias, or Barachiah, does not appear in the O.T.)

MT 24:29-33, MK 13:24-29 The coming of the kingdom will be accompanied by signs and miracles.
LK 17:20-21 It will not be accompanied by signs and miracles. It is already within.

MT 25:34 Heaven was prepared before the Ascension of Jesus.
JN 14:2-3 It was prepared after the Ascension of Jesus.

MT 26:6-13, MK 14:3 The anointing of Jeus takes place in Bethany at the house of Simon the leper.
LK 7:36-38 It takes place at the house of a Pharisee in Galilee.

MT 26:7, MK 14:3 The oil is poured on Jesus' head.
LK 7:38, JN 12:3 On his feet.

MT 26:7, MK 14:3, LK 7:37 An unnamed woman does the anointing.
JN 12:3 It is Mary.

MT 28:6-8 The women ran from the tomb "with great joy."
JN 20:1-2 Mary told Peter and the other disciple that the body had been stolen. (Would she feel "great joy" if she thought the body had been stolen?)

MT 26:8 The disciples reproach her.
MK 14:4 "Some" reproach her.
JN 12:4-5 Judas Iscariot reproaches her.

MT 26:14-25, MK 14:10-11, LK 22:3-23 Judas made his bargain with the chief priests before the meal.
JN 13:21-30 After the meal.

MT 26:20-29, MK 14:17-28, JN 13:21-30 Jesus forecasts his betrayal prior to the communion portion of the supper.
LK 22:14-23 After the communion portion.

MT 26:26-29, MK 14:22-25 The order of the communion was: bread, then wine.
LK 22:17-20 It was: wine, then bread.

MT 26:34, LK 22:34, JN 13:38 Peter was to deny Jesus before the cock crowed.
MK 14:30 Before the cock crowed twice.
MK 14:66-72 The cock crows after both the first and second denials.
(Note: These discrepancies have been "translated out" in some Bible versions.)

MT 26:40-45, MK 14:37-41 The disciples fall asleep three times.
LK 22:45 One time.

MT 26:49-50, MK 14:44-46 Jesus is betrayed by Judas with a kiss, then seized.
LK 22:47-48 Jesus anticipates Judas' kiss. No actual kiss is mentioned.
JN 18:2-9 Jesus voluntarily steps forward to identify himself making it completely unnecessary for Judas to point him out. No kiss is mentioned.

MT 26:51, MK 14:47, JN 18:10 The ear of a slave is cut off and left that way.
LK 22:50-51 The severed ear is miraculously healed by Jesus.

MT 26:52 Dispose of swords. All who take the sword will perish by it.
LK 22:36-38 Buy swords.

MT 26:57, MK 14:53, LK 22:54 After his arrest Jesus is first taken to Caiphas, the high priest.
JN 18:13-24 First to Annas, the son-in-law of Caiphas, then to Caiphas.

MT 26:18-20, 57-68, 27:1-2, MK 14:16-18, 53-72, 15:1 Jesus' initial hearing was at night on Passover. In the morning he was taken to Pilate.
LK 22:13-15, 54-66 The initial hearing took place in the morning on Passover.
JN 18:28, 19:14 It took place the day before Passover, on the Day of Preparation.

MT 26:59-66, MK 14:55-64 Jesus was tried by the entire Sanhedrin (the chief priests and the whole council).
LK 22:66-71 There was no trial but merely an inquiry held by the Sanhedrin.
JN 18:13-24 There was no appearance before the Sanhedrin, only the private hearings before Annas and then Caiphas.

MT 26:63, LK 22:70 The high priest asks Jesus if he is the Son of God.
MK 14:61 He asks Jesus if he is the Son of the Blessed.

MT 26:64, LK 22:70 Jesus answers: "You have said so," or words to this effect.
MK 14:62 He answers directly: "I am."

MT 26:69-70 Peter makes his first denial to a maid and "them all."
MK 14:66-68, LK 22:56-57, JN 18:17 It was to one maid only.

MT 26:71-72 Peter's second denial is to still another maid.
MK 14:69-70 (Apparently) to the same maid.
LK 22:58 To a man, not a maid.
JN 18:25 To more than one, "they."

MT 26:73-74, MK 14:70-71 Peter's third denial is to bystanders (two or more).
LK 22:59-60 To "another" (one).
JN 18:26-27 To one of the servants.

MT 26:74 The cock crowed once.
MK 14:72 The cock crowed twice.

MT 27:3-7 The chief priests bought the field.
AC 1:16-19 Judas bought the field.

MT 27:5 Judas threw down the pieces of silver, then departed.
AC 1:18 He used the coins to buy the field.

MT 27:5 Judas hanged himself.
AC 1:18 He fell headlong, burst open, and his bowels gushed out.

MT 27:11, MK 15:2, LK 23:3 When asked if he is King of the Jews, Jesus answers: "You have said so," (or "Thou sayest").
JN 18:33-34 He answers: "Do you say this of your own accord?"

MT 27:11-14 Jesus answers not a single charge at his hearing before Pilate.
JN 18:33-37 Jesus answers all charges at his hearing before Pilate.

MT 27:20 The chief priests and elders are responsible for persuading the people to ask for the release of Barabbas.
MK 15:11 Only the chief priests are responsible.
LK 23:18-23 The people ask, apparently having decided for themselves.

MT 27:28 Jesus is given a scarlet robe (a sign of infamy).
MK 15:17, JN 19:2 A purple robe (a sign of royalty).

MT 27:32, MK 15:21, LK 23:26 Simon of Cyrene carries Jesus' cross.
JN 19:17 Jesus carries his own cross with no help from anyone.

MT 27:37 The inscription on the cross read: "This is Jesus the King of the Jews."
MK 15:26 "The King of the Jews."
LK 23:38 "This is the King of the Jews."
JN 19:19 "Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews."

MT 27:44 Both of those who are crucified with Jesus taunt him.
LK 23:39-42 Only one taunts Jesus, and he is rebuked by the other for doing so.

MT 27:46 Jesus asks God, the Father, why he has been forsaken.
JN 10:30 Jesus says that he and the Father are one.

MT 27:46-50, MK 15:34-37 Jesus' last recorded words are: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"
LK 23:46 "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit."
JN 19:30 "It is finished." (Note: Even though both MT and MK represent direct quotes and are translated similarly, the actual Greek words used for God are different. MT uses "Eli" and MK uses "Eloi.")

MT 27:48, LK 23:36, JN 19:29 Jesus was offered vinegar to drink.
MK 15:23 It was wine and myrrh, and he did not drink it.
JN 19:29-30 Whatever it was, he did drink it.

MT 27:54 The centurion says: "Truly this was the son of God."
MK 15:39 He says: "Truly this man was the son of God!"
LK 23:47 He says: "Truly this man was innocent" (or "righteous").

MT 27:55, MK 15:40, LK 23:49 The women looked on from afar.
JN 19:25-26 They were near enough that Jesus could speak to his mother.

MT 27:62-66 A guard was placed at the tomb (the day following the burial).
MK 15:42- 16:8, LK 23:50-56, JN 19:38-42 (No guard is mentioned. This is important since rumor had it that Jesus' body was stolen and the Resurrection feigned.)
MK 16:1-3, LK 24:1 (There could not have been a guard, as far as the women were concerned, since they were planning to enter the tomb with spices. Though the women were aware of the stone, they were obviously unaware of a guard.)

MT 24:9 Even some of the disciples of Jesus will be killed.
JN 8:51 If anyone keeps Jesus' words, he will never see death.
HE 9:27 [All] men die once, then judgement follows.

MT 28:1 The first visitors to the tomb were Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (two).
MK 16:1 Both of the above plus Salome (three).
LK 23:55 - 24:1, 24:10 Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and "other women" (at least five).
JN 20:1 Mary Magdalene only (one).

MT 28:1 It was toward dawn when they arrived.
MK 16:2 It was after sunrise.
LK 24:1 It was at early dawn.
JN 20:1 It was still dark.

MT 28:1-2 The stone was still in place when they arrived. It was rolled away later.
MK 16:4, LK 24:2, JN 20:1 The stone had already been rolled (or taken) away.

MT 28:2 An angel arrived during an earthquake, rolled back the stone, then sat on it (outside the tomb).
MK 16:5 No earthquake, only one young man sitting inside the tomb.
LK 24:2-4 No earthquake. Two men suddenly appear standing inside the tomb.
JN 20:12 No earthquake. Two angels are sitting inside the tomb.

MT 28:8 The visitors ran to tell the disciples.
MK 16:8 They said nothing to anyone.
LK 24:9 They told the eleven and all the rest.
JN 20:10-11 The disciples returned home. Mary remained outside, weeping.

MT 28:8-9 Jesus' first Resurrection appearance was fairly near the tomb.
LK 24:13-15 It was in the vicinity of Emmaus (seven miles from Jerusalem).
JN 20:13-14 It was right at the tomb.

MT 28:9 On his first appearance to them, Jesus lets Mary Magdalene and the other Mary hold him by his feet.
JN 20:17 On his first appearance to Mary, Jesus forbids her to touch him since he has not yet ascended to the Father.
JN 20:27 A week later, although he has not yet ascended to the Father, Jesus tells Thomas to touch him.

MT 28:7-10, MT 28:16 Although some doubted, the initial reaction of those that heard the story was one of belief since they followed the revealed instructions.
MK 16:11, LK 24:11 The initial reaction was one of disbelief. All doubted.

MT 28:1-18 The order of Resurrection appearances was: Mary Magdalene and the other Mary, then the eleven.
MK 16:9-14 It was Mary Magdalene, then two others, then the eleven.
LK 24:15-36 It was two, then Simon (Peter?), then the eleven.
JN 20:14 - 21:1 It was Mary Magdalene, then the disciples without Thomas, then the disciples with Thomas, then the eleven disciples again.
1CO 15:5-8 It was Cephas (Peter?), then the "twelve" (which twelve, Judas was dead?), then 500+ brethren (although AC 1:15 says there were only about 120), then James, then all the Apostles, then Paul.

MT 28:19 Jesus instructs his disciples to baptize.
1CO 1:17 Although he considers himself a disciple of Jesus, Paul says that he has not been sent to baptize.

MK 1:2 Jesus quotes a statement that he says appears in Isaiah. (No such statement appears in Isaiah.)

MK 1:14 Jesus began his ministry after the arrest of John the Baptist.
JN 3:22-24 Before the arrest of John the Baptist.

MK 1:23-24 A demon cries out that Jesus is the Holy One of God.
JN 4:1-2 Everyone who confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God. (Note: This would mean that the demon is of God.)

MK 3:29 Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is an unforgivable sin.
AC 13:39, CN 2:13, 1JN 1:9 All sins are forgivable.

MK 4:11-12, 11:25 Jesus says that he uses parables so that the meaning of some of his teachings will remain secret to at least some persons. He explains the meanings of the parables only to his disciples. He thanks God for hiding some things from the wise while revealing them to "babes."
JN 18:20 Jesus says that he always taught openly, never secretly.

MK 6:16 Herod was the source of the belief that John had been raised from the dead.
LK 9:7 Others were the source. Herod was perplexed by the belief.

MK 6:52 The people were so unimpressed with "the Feeding of the Multitude" that they did not even understand the event.
JN 6:14-15 They were so impressed that they tried to force Jesus to be their king.

MK 6:53 After the feeding of the 5000, Jesus and the disciples went to Gennesaret.
JN 6:17-25 They went to Capernaum.

MK 10:19 Jesus lists "defraud not" as one of the commandments.
EX 20:3-17 There is no such commandment in the Ten Commandments or elsewhere in the OT)

MK 15:25 It was the third hour when Jesus was crucified.
JN 19:14-15 It was after the sixth hour since Jesus was still before Pilate and had not yet been sentenced at that time.

MK 16:1-2 The women came to the tomb to anoint the body.
JN 19:39-40 The body had already been anointed and wrapped in linen cloth.

MK 16:5, LK 24:3 The women actually entered the tomb.
JN 20:1-2, 11 They did not.

MK 16:14-19 The Ascension took place (presumably from a room) while the disciples were together seated at a table, probably in or near Jerusalem.
LK 24:50-51 It took place outdoors, after supper, at Bethany (near Jerusalem).
AC 1:9-12 It took place outdoors, after 40+ days, at Mt. Olivet.
MT 28:16-20 No mention is made of an ascension, but if it took place at all, it must have been from a mountain in Galilee since MT ends there.)

LK 1:15 John the Baptist had the Holy Spirit from before his birth or the birth of Jesus.
LK 1:41 Elizabeth had it long before Jesus went away.
LK 1:67 So did Zechariah.
LK 2:25 So did Simeon.
LK 11:13 It is obtained by prayer (presumably at any time).
JN 7:39, JN 16:7, AC 1:3-5 The Holy Spirit cannot come into the world until after Jesus has departed.

LK 8:12 The Devil causes unbelief.
MK 4:11-12 Jesus is responsible for unbelief in at least some cases.
2TH 2:11-12 God is ultimately responsible for unbelief in at least some cases.

LK 14:26 No one can be a disciple of Jesus unless he hates his parents, wife, children, brothers and sisters.
JN 3:15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer.
JN 4:20 If anyone claims to love God but hates his brother, he is a liar.

LK 18:9-14 Do not boast of your virtue.
RO 11:20, 1PE 5:5 Do not be proud.
RO 15:17, 2CO 1:12, HE 3:6, 2CO 2:14, 5:12, 11:17 Paul boasts of his faith and says that one should be proud of it.

LK 22:3-23 Satan entered Judas before the supper.
JN 13:27 It was during the supper.

LK 23:43 Jesus promises one of those crucified with him that they will be together, that very day, in Paradise.
JN 20:17, AC 1:3 Jesus was not raised until the third day and did not ascend until at least forty days later.

LK 23:55-56 The women followed Joseph to the tomb, saw how the body had been laid, then went to prepare spices with which to annoint the body.
JN 19:39-40 Joseph brought spices with him (75 or a 100 lbs.) and annointed the body (as the women should have noticed).

JN 1:1, 10:30 Jesus and God are one.
JN 14:28 God is greater than Jesus.

JN 1:1 Jesus was God incarnate.
AC 2:22 Jesus was a man approved by God.

JN 3:17, 8:15, 12:47 Jesus does not judge.
JN 5:22, 5:27-30, 9:39, AC 10:42, 2CO 5:10 Jesus does judge.

JN 5:22 God does not judge.
RO 2:2-5, 3:19, 2TH 1:5, 1PE 1:17 God does judge.

JN 5:24 Believers do not come into judgement.
MT 12:36, 2CO 5:10, HE 9:27, 1PE 1:17, JU 1:14-15, RE 20:12-13 All persons (including believers) come into judgement.

JN 5:31 Jesus says that if he bears witness to himself, his testimony is not true.
JN 8:14 Jesus says that even if he bears witness to himself, his testimony is true.

JN 5:38-47 Men have a choice as to whether or not to receive Jesus.
JN 6:44 No one can come to Jesus unless he is drawn by the Father.

JN 7:38 Jesus quotes a statement that he says appears in scripture (i.e., the OT).
(No such statement is found in the OT.)

JN 10:27-29 None of Jesus' followers will be lost.
TI 4:1 Some of them will be lost.

JN 10:30 Jesus and the Father are one, (i.e., equal).
JN 14:28 The Father is greater than Jesus.

JN 12:31 The Devil is the ruler (or "prince") of this world.
1CO 10:26, RE 1:5 Jesus is the ruler of kings--the earth is his.

JN 12:32 Jesus implies that all persons will be saved.
TI 2:3-4, 2PE 3:9 God wants all to be saved.
JN 12:40, AC 2:21, 2:39, RO 9:27, 10:13 Some will not be saved.
RE 14:1-4 Heaven will be inhabited by 144,000 virgin men (only?).

JN 13:36 Peter asks Jesus where he is going.
JN 14:5 Thomas does the same.
JN 16:5 Jesus says that none of them have asked him where he is going.

JN 17:12 Jesus has lost none of his disciples other than Judas.
JN 18:9 Jesus has lost none, period.

JN 17:12 Mentions a "son of perdition" as appearing in scripture (meaning the OT).
(Note: There is no "son of perdition" mentioned in the OT.)

JN 18:37 Jesus came into the world to bear witness to the truth.
RO 1:18-20 The truth has always been evident.

JN 20:9 Jesus quotes a statement that he says appears in scripture (meaning the OT). (No such statement is found in the OT.)

JN 20:22 In his first resurrection appearance before the assembled disciples, Jesus gives them the Holy Spirit.
AC 1:3-5, AC 2:1-4 The Holy Spirit was received much later (on Pentecost.)

JN 21:25 The world probably could not contain the books if all that Jesus did were to be recorded.
AC 1:1 The author of Acts has already written about all that Jesus began to do.

AC 5:19, 12:6-11 The disciples take part in a jailbreak made possible by an angel.
AC 5:40-42 The disciples disobey the Council and continue to teach and preach Jesus.
RO 13:1-4, 1PE 2:13-15 Obey the laws of men (i.e., government). It is the will of God.

AC 5:29 Obey God, not men.
RO 13:1-4, 1PE 2:13-15 Obey the laws of men (i.e., government). It is the will of God.

AC 9:7 Those present at Paul's conversion heard the voice but saw no one.
AC 22:9 They saw a light but did not hear a voice.

AC 9:7 Those present at Paul's conversion stood.
AC 26:14 They fell to the ground.

AC 9:19-28 Shortly after his conversion, Paul went to Damascus, then Jerusalem where he was introduced to the Apostles by Barnabas, and there spent some time with them (going in and out among them).
GA 1:15-20 He made the trip three years later, then saw only Peter and James.

AC 9:23 The governor attempted to seize Paul.
2CO 11:32 It was the Jews who tried to seize Paul.

AC 10:34, RO 2:11 God shows no partiality. He treats all alike.
RO 9:11-13 God hated Esau and loved Jacob even before their birth.

AC 10:34, RO 2:11 God shows no partiality. He treats all alike.
RO 9:18 God has mercy on whoever he chooses, etc.

AC 16:6 The Holy Spirit forbids preaching in Asia.
AC 19:8-10 Paul preaches in Asia anyway.

AC 20:35 Quotes Jesus as having said: "It is more blessed to give than to receive." (No such statement of Jesus is found elsewhere in the Bible.)

RO 2:12 All who have sinned without the law will perish without the law.
RO 4:15 Where there is no law there is no transgression (sin).

RO 2:13 Doers of the law will be justified.
RO 3:20, GA 3:11 They will not be justified.

RO 2:15 The law is written on the heart. Conscience teaches right from wrong.
1JN 2:27 Anointing by Jesus teaches right from wrong.

RO 4:9 Faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness.
JA 2:21 Abraham was justified by works (which made his faith perfect).

RO 10:11 (An alleged OT quote; no such statement in the OT.)

RO 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor anything that might cause your brother to stumble or be offended.
CN 2:16 Let no one pass judgement on you in matters of food and drink.

1CO 7:8-9 Widows should not marry (although it is better to marry than burn).
TI 5:14 Young widows should marry, bear children, rule the household, etc..

1CO 8:4 There is only one God.
2CO 4:4 Satan is God of this world (therefore there are at least two gods).

1CO 10:33 Paul says that he tries to please men (so they might be saved).
GA 1:10 Paul says he would not be a servant of Christ if he tried to please men.

2CO 12:16 Paul says that he does use trickery.
1TH 2:3 Paul says that he does not use trickery.

GA 6:2 Bear one anothers burdens.
GA 6:5 Bear your own burden.

1TH 2:2 God gave Paul the courage to continue his work.
1TH 2:17-18 Satan hindered Paul.
(Note: Who is stronger, Satan or God?)

TI 1:15 Paul says that he is the foremost of sinners.
JN 3:8-10 He who commits sin is of the Devil. Children of God do not sin.

TI 6:20, 2TI 2:14-16, 3:1-7 Do not argue with an unbeliever.
2JN 1:10-11 Anyone who even greets an unbeliever shares his wicked work.
1PE 3:15 Always be ready to answer any man concerning your faith.

JA 4:5 (Quotes an alleged scripture (OT) verse; not found in the OT.)

RE 8:7 All of the grass on earth is burned up, and then ...
REV 9:4 An army of locusts, which is about to be turned loose on the earth, is instructed not to harm the grass.



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01 Aug 2011, 7:17 am

^

What an intellectual dummy spit. Another Argumentum Verbosium.


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01 Aug 2011, 8:15 am

Booyakasha wrote:
Ancalagon wrote:


There are parts of the Bible that matter more than others. There are famous verses about love and kindness and not being arrogant that are worth more than a hundred thousand verses on trivial details about the names of someone's mothers' parents.


Then what about these inconsistencies?



If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
(Luke 14:26)

If a man say, 'I love God,' and he hateth his brother, he is a liar; for he that loves not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
(1 John 4:20)

Also:


Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is unforgivable
(Matthew 12:31-32)


Absolutely right, 91.

I make a point of only taking two at a time. So here we go:

#1, Luke vs. 1 John: With Luke, it's a matter of context. I've seen this one so many times I have it memorized. What's going on in Luke is Jesus is teaching about how His disciples will face persecution. The way "miseos" is used it really has more meanings than just "hate" the way we understand it. Yes, the original Greek DOES have that meaning, but it doesn't match contextually here. To "hate" something can also generally refer to favoring something over something else, that which is "hated" in the intended sense. What Jesus is trying to tell the disciples is that a convert's children, wife, parents, and siblings could very well betray them to religious and government authorities to put them to death. What Jesus wants to persuade them of is that in order to completely follow His teachings, one must be willing to abandon his family if it is the only way he can follow Jesus, even at the risk of his own life.

It speaks to tolerance, too. If everyone else in the world who believes differently is so tolerant and loving, why would they treat Christians with cruelty? Why would they treat ANYONE with cruelty? Jewish family bonds are very important to them culturally, and following Jesus in their eyes would be like a Southern Baptist converting to Mormonism. It's a sense of betrayal. And no one who "loves" their family would do that...but on the other hand, why would a family who loves someone treat flesh and blood with contempt? Would it not make more sense to plead with that person to come back to the fold rather than just completely cutting him off? Christians are never instructed to do that. It seems at one time there were people even more "intolerant" than Christians.

It's the kind of risk knowing your own family would turn against you that Jesus is talking about here, and by "hating" your own life Jesus is only saying that He is to take priority over everything else, even your own well-being.

John is talking about something else entirely. What John is talking about is both flesh-and-blood family relations AND Christian brotherhood. I'd even extend that to say that all of humanity is also a brotherhood, and that this refers to Jesus' command to love everyone (your neighbor) as yourself.

In short, Luke and John aren't even really talking about the same thing, so there can't be any contradiction here. It's mostly a matter of context.

OK...#2: Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

I love this one. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit means attributing something that is the direct result of the influence of the Spirit. The miracles Jesus performed, for instance, He credited to the power of God through Him by the Holy Spirit. The religious leaders accused Him of being possessed by a demon. If you experience the power of the Holy Spirit, you know it, and then just try to explain it away as anything but what you know it to be, you've committed blasphemy. This is a difficult sin to commit. If you're scared you've blasphemed the Holy Spirit, it's safe to say you haven't. Denying the Spirit requires a conscious, deliberate effort. The Apostle Paul, for instance, already believed in God but did not know Jesus. When Jesus confronted Paul, Paul could just as easily have claimed heatstroke, stress, hallucination, cerebral hemorrhage (stroke, but they wouldn't have known the cause back then), temporary insanity/delusion, epileptic seizure, etc. The difference is Paul recognized his experience as an act of the Holy Spirit and accepted it as such. Denying his experience with God that day would have made Paul guilty of blasphemy.

Not sure what the difficulty with Matthew 12 is, though. Just don't like the idea that any sin can be unforgivable, or what? That it contradicts the forgiving nature of the Father? Look, if that's the case, the Father let's us choose whether we WANT to be in heaven with Him or not. We aren't compelled to admit our sins and seek forgiveness. That would be less merciful, I think--certainly unjust. No justice would be contrary to God's nature. If you really want to work that hard to experience the Holy Spirit and deny your experience, that's your problem--not mine or God's.



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01 Aug 2011, 8:18 am

The "dummy pit" has a lot of stuff there. I've noticed that those copy/paste intimidation exercises tend to go in roughly the same order every time. I've answered two that I'm USED to answering, and really only because they were the first two. I think someone else should pick two for a change. This gets old quickly.



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01 Aug 2011, 8:24 am

91 wrote:
^

What an intellectual dummy spit. Another Argumentum Verbosium.


Haha :lol: No, I was just curious as to what is the Christian point of view at some of the inconsistencies. :)

I fail to see where did I use the plethora of complex words just to dazzle the opposition, or in what manner have I tried to intimidate the opposition? If they're true believers no matter what some internet person writes will bare no difference to them.



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01 Aug 2011, 8:25 am

AngelRho wrote:
Booyakasha wrote:
Ancalagon wrote:


There are parts of the Bible that matter more than others. There are famous verses about love and kindness and not being arrogant that are worth more than a hundred thousand verses on trivial details about the names of someone's mothers' parents.


Then what about these inconsistencies?



If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
(Luke 14:26)

If a man say, 'I love God,' and he hateth his brother, he is a liar; for he that loves not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
(1 John 4:20)

Also:


Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is unforgivable
(Matthew 12:31-32)


Absolutely right, 91.

I make a point of only taking two at a time. So here we go:

#1, Luke vs. 1 John: With Luke, it's a matter of context. I've seen this one so many times I have it memorized. What's going on in Luke is Jesus is teaching about how His disciples will face persecution. The way "miseos" is used it really has more meanings than just "hate" the way we understand it. Yes, the original Greek DOES have that meaning, but it doesn't match contextually here. To "hate" something can also generally refer to favoring something over something else, that which is "hated" in the intended sense. What Jesus is trying to tell the disciples is that a convert's children, wife, parents, and siblings could very well betray them to religious and government authorities to put them to death. What Jesus wants to persuade them of is that in order to completely follow His teachings, one must be willing to abandon his family if it is the only way he can follow Jesus, even at the risk of his own life.

It speaks to tolerance, too. If everyone else in the world who believes differently is so tolerant and loving, why would they treat Christians with cruelty? Why would they treat ANYONE with cruelty? Jewish family bonds are very important to them culturally, and following Jesus in their eyes would be like a Southern Baptist converting to Mormonism. It's a sense of betrayal. And no one who "loves" their family would do that...but on the other hand, why would a family who loves someone treat flesh and blood with contempt? Would it not make more sense to plead with that person to come back to the fold rather than just completely cutting him off? Christians are never instructed to do that. It seems at one time there were people even more "intolerant" than Christians.

It's the kind of risk knowing your own family would turn against you that Jesus is talking about here, and by "hating" your own life Jesus is only saying that He is to take priority over everything else, even your own well-being.

John is talking about something else entirely. What John is talking about is both flesh-and-blood family relations AND Christian brotherhood. I'd even extend that to say that all of humanity is also a brotherhood, and that this refers to Jesus' command to love everyone (your neighbor) as yourself.

In short, Luke and John aren't even really talking about the same thing, so there can't be any contradiction here. It's mostly a matter of context.

OK...#2: Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

I love this one. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit means attributing something that is the direct result of the influence of the Spirit. The miracles Jesus performed, for instance, He credited to the power of God through Him by the Holy Spirit. The religious leaders accused Him of being possessed by a demon. If you experience the power of the Holy Spirit, you know it, and then just try to explain it away as anything but what you know it to be, you've committed blasphemy. This is a difficult sin to commit. If you're scared you've blasphemed the Holy Spirit, it's safe to say you haven't. Denying the Spirit requires a conscious, deliberate effort. The Apostle Paul, for instance, already believed in God but did not know Jesus. When Jesus confronted Paul, Paul could just as easily have claimed heatstroke, stress, hallucination, cerebral hemorrhage (stroke, but they wouldn't have known the cause back then), temporary insanity/delusion, epileptic seizure, etc. The difference is Paul recognized his experience as an act of the Holy Spirit and accepted it as such. Denying his experience with God that day would have made Paul guilty of blasphemy.

Not sure what the difficulty with Matthew 12 is, though. Just don't like the idea that any sin can be unforgivable, or what? That it contradicts the forgiving nature of the Father? Look, if that's the case, the Father let's us choose whether we WANT to be in heaven with Him or not. We aren't compelled to admit our sins and seek forgiveness. That would be less merciful, I think--certainly unjust. No justice would be contrary to God's nature. If you really want to work that hard to experience the Holy Spirit and deny your experience, that's your problem--not mine or God's.


Thank you, I appreciate your time taken to answer my question. :)



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01 Aug 2011, 8:42 am

91 wrote:
^

What an intellectual dummy spit. Another Argumentum Verbosium.

No. It's Argument by Example ... many examples.

Denying that those examples exist will not make them go away, nor will calling them "dummy spit" or other names. These are the contradictions many of us present to alleged experts in all things Biblical. We also present them to people that have not yet fully committed to any particular church's arbitrary doctrine.

Funny thing about contradictions ... given any two directly-contradictory claims, at least one of them has to be false (that is, a lie). It is possible for both to be false, as well. Of the 439 currently-known contradictions in the Bible, at least half of the contradictory statements are false - they can not both be right, and both can even be wrong.

And if there are that many lies in the Bible that can be demonstrated, then how many other lies are being overlooked? How many Biblical lies are being passed off on a gullible laity as "Mysterious Ways"? How often do Christian leaders simply ignore Biblical lies to assure a steady income through the collection plate? How often do Christian leaders spread their own predictions of the End Of The World in the hope that their congregations (and thus the take from the collection) will increase due to fear?

It's no wonder the early Christian church fought so hard to keep Bibles out of the hands of ordinary people, especially when those Bibles had been translated into the local languages. Only a tyrannical and repressive leadership would deny knowledge to its followers ... letting them know the truth and the lies, sets the oppressed masses free from Christian ignorance. It also tends to reduce any given church's membership and income.

This is why fundamentalists fear a fully secular education in secular schools. If they haven't brainwashed a child into believing Christian doctrine by the time the child is 12 (or thereabouts), they have lost that child to the Real World ... not to mention any future income from that child.


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01 Aug 2011, 8:51 am

When logic falls on dead ears, many times I resort to b****ing.

I wouldn't call it hate so much as distaste or fustration. It's a personal failing that I seem to share with many here.



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01 Aug 2011, 8:54 am

Heh, remember kiddos. When xtians spill tons of bible quotes to support their point they are spreading the good news. When atheists list a whole mountain of contradictions it is an argumentum verbosion.
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01 Aug 2011, 9:06 am

Booyakasha wrote:
Thank you, I appreciate your time taken to answer my question. :)

It's not a problem at all. I regularly devote time during the day to this kind of thing, and I really wish I had all day to do it!

It's not that you're trying to intimidate people with complexity of words. If your intentions really are good and honest, you have to understand that the average Christian is not that familiar with the Bible or Biblical doctrine. When someone throws a plethora of "difficulties" at us, our first instinct is to try to answer every single one, which is impossible in a short period of time, and we don't always have the answers immediately prepared. I mean, we SHOULD have prepared answers. I'm just saying in practice we often don't have those answers.

I'm only different in that I enjoy studying this stuff on my own and also enjoy sharing what I know. I'd like to think I educate the ignorant and encourage my fellow believers. You may not have meant it as an attack, but that's the perception, and I'd advise any Christian respondent to pick a maximum of two difficulties, STUDY the difficulties and the scriptural references, and CAREFULLY formulate a good response. No Christian OUGHT to be intimidated by having something like that thrown at them, but neither should someone use a psychological bully tactic to justify "winning" an argument.

It's better form to attack the religion from real or perceived Bible difficulties this way:

Person A: The Bible is untrue because it contradicts itself.
Person B: OK. So what's ONE (or two) contradiction(s)?
Person A: [Contradiction #1], optional [Contradiction #2]
Person B: Fine, [Explanation] Next?

If the explanation is not satisfactory, you can proceed to attack it or move on to something else. Merely copy/pasting a string of difficulties isn't going to encourage someone to defend their position. Note in the short model dialogue, it is Person A who has to prove the contradiction. Person B's problem is to show that the reasons behind the assertion are mistaken and that the supposed contradiction is actually false--that Person A hasn't really proved his case. If Person A can provide conclusive proof that he is right, then Person B has to concede.

For the record, it doesn't bother me to "lose" an argument. It means either the other person is right OR that I merely haven't thought through my responses enough and that I need to study more. You can't assume anything to be bulletproof. What bothered me was when kxmode would copy/paste (seemingly) straight out of Watchtower material and then get upset when his views were challenged. I didn't see any attempt at critical thinking. Flooding a post with "Bible difficulties" is no different, and people who post such garbage don't seem to really be interested in a response. If you mean well, stick with something you're genuinely interested in (Genesis 1 vs Evolution is a TIRED discussion right now, IMO, and I'd like to see something else discussed for a change).



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01 Aug 2011, 9:16 am

Vexcalibur wrote:
Heh, remember kiddos. When xtians spill tons of bible quotes to support their point they are spreading the good news. When atheists list a whole mountain of contradictions it is an argumentum verbosion.
.

I like to think I only do that if the Bible is what is actually being discussed and verse-dropping is actually necessary. If we're talking actually theology or doctrine, Bible passages are used as evidence of what is being put forth.

I don't think trying to prove Biblical contradiction as an offensive tactic really gets your anywhere, though. If someone spams you with Bible quotes, cut-n-paste style, throw the contradictions at them one or two at a time. Keep 'em busy. Make 'em either prove it or shut up. They need to be shown that they don't know as much as they think they do. No one from either side should be intimidated into submission. If I am guilty of this, I will most certainly try to stop. That doesn't mean I don't have the right to have my beliefs challenged nor the right to answer for what I believe.

I find ignorant Christians (ignorant of their own religion, that is) even MORE annoying than Biblically-ignorant atheists. Learn your Bible, folks! lol



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01 Aug 2011, 9:22 am

AngelRho wrote:
[I find ignorant Christians (ignorant of their own religion, that is) even MORE annoying than Biblically-ignorant atheists. Learn your Bible, folks! lol


And why should an Atheist know your bible? An atheist doesn't believe in any religion, so if they were 'supposed' to read your bible then they would need to read the Hindu texts (say goodbye to a good 20 years trying to make your way through those), the Buddhist texts, the Mormon thing, etc.

Atheism doesn't contrast Christianity any more than it contrasts any other religion. Saying it does is egotistical and narsasstic.



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01 Aug 2011, 9:50 am

i don't hate christianity. it's just actual christians i don't like. like what ghandi said:

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."



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01 Aug 2011, 9:52 am

K-R-X wrote:
And why should an Atheist know your bible?

Because it's unreasonable to argue out of ignorance. It, well, makes you look bad. You can't argue against something if you don't know what you're arguing against.

K-R-X wrote:
An atheist doesn't believe in any religion, so if they were 'supposed' to read your bible then they would need to read the Hindu texts (say goodbye to a good 20 years trying to make your way through those), the Buddhist texts, the Mormon thing, etc.

Hindu and Buddhists texts are fundamentally wrong on the issue of reincarnation. That alone is sufficient for debunking those religions. But yes, you are right in that a Christian arguing against Buddhism or Hinduism would need to understand the religions first before trying to argue against them.

You also mentioned parenthetically about the time it would take to thoroughly understand the texts. The thing is, though, that if it would take me that much time to study them, it would take anybody else the same amount of time. So if I were arguing with, say, a Buddhist, I'd be arguing with someone who MOST LIKELY is ignorant even of his own religion. If I spend an hour or two a day reading the Bible, on the other hand, I can make a good study of it in less than a year. Christians have no excuse. And, frankly, neither do atheists. You'll note I don't often go on the attack. If someone attacks my beliefs, I'm going to answer as knowledgeably as I can. I have found the few times I actually HAVE challenged atheism directly, I didn't know as much about it as I thought I did. Sure, I still think they're wrong. But at least I can say that having better information than I did once upon a time.

K-R-X wrote:
Atheism doesn't contrast Christianity any more than it contrasts any other religion. Saying it does is egotistical and narsasstic.

I never said it did. But it still stands that if you're going to attack a faith or a viewpoint, you should at least know what you're talking about.



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01 Aug 2011, 9:56 am

Booyakasha wrote:
91 wrote:
^

What an intellectual dummy spit. Another Argumentum Verbosium.


Haha :lol: No, I was just curious as to what is the Christian point of view at some of the inconsistencies. :)

I fail to see where did I use the plethora of complex words just to dazzle the opposition, or in what manner have I tried to intimidate the opposition? If they're true believers no matter what some internet person writes will bare no difference to them.


So much wrong here. You went to the wrong definition of Argumentum verbosium:

Argumentum verbosium is also known as Proof by Intimidation, or Proof by Verbosity. It refers to an argument that is so complex, so long-winded and so poorly presented by the arguer that you are obliged to accept it, simply to avoid being forced to sift through its minute details.

Sorry, but your argument fits this description.


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01 Aug 2011, 10:21 am

91 wrote:
Booyakasha wrote:
91 wrote:
^

What an intellectual dummy spit. Another Argumentum Verbosium.


Haha :lol: No, I was just curious as to what is the Christian point of view at some of the inconsistencies. :)

I fail to see where did I use the plethora of complex words just to dazzle the opposition, or in what manner have I tried to intimidate the opposition? If they're true believers no matter what some internet person writes will bare no difference to them.


So much wrong here. You went to the wrong definition of Argumentum verbosium:

Argumentum verbosium is also known as Proof by Intimidation, or Proof by Verbosity. It refers to an argument that is so complex, so long-winded and so poorly presented by the arguer that you are obliged to accept it, simply to avoid being forced to sift through its minute details.

Sorry, but your argument fits this description.


You copy pasted the definition from one of the sites I used to defend myself from the alleged logical fallacy.

http://www.heavingdeadcats.com/2009/02/ ... imidation/

From another site:
Quote:
Argumentum verbosium is a form of Argument from Intimidation - in this case, by being incredibly verbose, using a plethora of complex words to make one's self sound incredibly smart, and dazzle the opposition. The opposing side will struggle to understand what is being said, and appear to "lose" the debate.


Verbose means Using or containing a great and usually an excessive number of words; wordy.


My only words were "Then what about these inconsistencies? " and "And a few more" and that can hardly be called verbose, even by very low standards.

Sorry, but I have failed to reach the criteria for the fallacy above.

I also had no intention of intimidating anyone - that was your fallacious thinking, by falsely using probabilistic, i.e. inductive reasoning, a weak type of induction - if many posters post argumentum ad verbosium, therefore X posted the aforementioned argument as well.